Bowen Syms 1 & 2 from Chandos

[eschiss1]

Clements is not, in my opinion (was just rereading some of his reviews from a few years back), one of the reviewers who goes into listening-to and reviewing-of lesser-known music with his ears closed, though one may disagree with him in particular cases.  Again, my opinion...

[albion]

Clements' paragraph doesn't really come across as a negative review, just one that is more or less completely devoid of content -

Symphony No.1 - It's a fluent but fundamentally unremarkable three-movement work, in a style that owes more to Mendelssohn and Schumann rather than to any later 19th-century British models.

Well yes, it's very much the highly accomplished student work of a precocious eighteen year old. 

Symphony No.2 - its faded romanticism still lacks any trace of individuality.

Well no, Bowen was a romantic composer writing in a romantic idiom in 1909. Whether or not the symphony is 'faded' (whatever the use of this vague adjective implies) depends on whether or not you like your symphonies melodious and sumptuous in the late romantic manner.

Bowen was one of the very few British composers whose mature style was audibly influenced by the Russian school (from Borodin onwards) - certain harmonic quirks and orchestral colourings mark this second symphony out as clearly Bowen's work, with familial similarities to his other scores, especially the Symphonic Fantasia, Op.16 (1905). I wonder just how much of Bowen's work has found its way onto Andrew Clements' listening schedule - my guess would be not a lot.

It may not be The Rite of Spring or Pierrot Lunaire but when I recognise fingerprints, that smacks of individuality to me. 

[Alan Howe]

I posted the link in order to keep our enthusiasm for this music grounded. I hope I'm wrong (my copy of the new CD is somewhere in the postal system), but I suspect that this isn't particularly significant music. Enjoyable, yes; important, no. Good to have it on CD? Definitely. Undiscovered masterpieces? No.

We need, I think, to be discriminating here. Enthusiasm for music of perhaps marginal significance is fine on a personal level (after all, we are free to like whatever we want), but on a wider public level it may damage the promotion of unsung music which all desire to see take place.

[petershott@btinternet.com]

Encouraged to see you're a Guardian man, Alan!!

I suffer with you the indignity of having my new CDs locked up in some forlorn and desolate mail centre somewhere until the current tomfoolery ceases and the nation returns to normal. But yes, when Bowen arrives (and I doubt it will have priority in being inserted into the CD player for there are some - for me at least - greater treats in store this month) I fully expect to enjoy it thoroughly, will be glad to have my knowledge of Bowen's music enhanced... but I do not suppose I will be utterly stopped in my tracks (as I was, incidentally, by Dale's piano sonata). But then, this is all my business and need not concern others.

However your more general point sets the brain whirling. I rather suspect I disagree. "Enthusiasm for music of...marginal significance...may damage the promotion of [other more deserving] unsung music". 'Damage'? Really? How could that be? I don't really see it. Maybe I'm being too simple minded, but I would have thought that the more 'non-central' music is accessible by way of recordings, performances in public concerts, broadcasts, and even snippets on ClassicFM etc the better off we are. Compare the situation in literature. Over the last 20 years or so we've seen a whole range of small publishers bringing out all sorts of stuff that has hardly seen the light of day. Pop into the local public library and you'll soon come across reading groups of perfectly 'ordinary' people eagerly discussing all sorts of obscure 19th century novels or whatever, the stuff that one never knew of when we wore school caps and did Eng Lit. And these people, with an enriched understanding of past literature, then have a fuller and more safely grounded view of the George Eliots, the Trollopes, the Hardys and can celebrate them all the more. (I also stick head up above the parapet and claim that this deeper and wider acquaintance with literature also enables informed readers to avoid being dazzled by the merely novel and 'stylish', and to grasp why the efforts of a Martin Amis are squalid and wretchedly awful things - but that's another story!)

Is it not the same in music? Some exposure to Bowen (or Raff or Rufinatscha or whoever) might then lead Mr Average Person to clamour for more performances and recordings of lesser known composers, a limiting of a staple diet of Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky etc in our concert halls and record catalogues (and thus paradoxically an increase in our estimation of these composers), and maybe an increased aversion to merely silly music and disorganised sheer mindless noise?

[Alan Howe]

All I'm trying to say is that there has to be discernment as to what is good and worthy of recording (which, I imagine, the Bowen symphonies are) and what is actually rather more than that. I sensed the same sort of over-estimate of the early Coleridge-Taylor Symphony on this forum: glad though one was to hear it, it's not a great piece by any stretch of the imagination.

Here I would simply draw two contrasts. Firstly, there is music of far superior quality written elsewhere by other gifted young composers of roughly the same period. A good example would be Georg Schumann's 1st Symphony written at the age of 21 - Coleridge-Taylor's piece, written at the same age, just cannot compare in any way at all. Secondly, there are genuinely individual unsung composers (which Bowen later became, although, I'm unsure from all the CDs I have of him whether he ever quite hits the heights) who, but for an accident of history, would have been recognised as such and might have influenced musical history more than they did - if they did at all. I am convinced, for example, that Rufinatscha comes into this category. I defy anyone to find anything in music written before 1846 which resembles his 5th Symphony.

So all I'm saying is that an over-estimate of particular music may make us look a bit silly - especially when it comes to trying to persuade others, whether they be critics, record producers, or whoever, that there is great music out there, waiting to be discovered and disseminated...

PS. I'm not a Guardian man, actually - I take The Independent 

[dafrieze]

I suspect this latest line of discussion may require a topic page of its own, but . . .

Have you never waited ten or twenty or thirty years to hear a performance of some hitherto unheard masterpiece by a hitherto little-known composer, and foamed and furied at the stupidity of concert planners and record companies who are happy to offer the 600th performance of the Beethoven Fifth but don't have the guts to present the world premiere of Sorabji's 32-hour-long Symphony for six pianos, twelve large choruses and nine orchestras playing simultaneously around the world, and then the long-awaited performance date arrives and you clear your schedule and you unplug your telephone and you find a comfy seat and you listen to Sorabji's 32-hour-long Symphony and you come out of it at the other end feeling that it was . . . okay? 

Or have you never bought a recording of an unsung symphony and been completely enraptured by it and realize that you've just heard an undiscovered masterpiece and you listen to it ten times over in the next few days and you bore all your friends with its wonders and insist that they all buy a copy of the disk to encourage the record company, and then life goes on, and a couple of months later you listen to the recording again and you realize that the undiscovered masterpiece is really just . . . okay?

I find that this sort of thing happens to the lover of unsung music all the time.  When I was a child accompanying my mother on her daily shopping rounds, I would look down the side streets we passed by (she always took the main road) and wonder what was down them.  I think I was convinced that down at least one of those side streets there would be a circus.  There never was, although there was usually a park or a lovely old house to admire.  I realize that we unsung fans are all the same in that respect.  We're all hoping to find a circus at the end of the side street.  I've found precious few undisovered masterpieces in the last 35 years, but I have discovered a lot of interesting, nourishing music along the way.  And I live in hope.

[eschiss1]

(and then I return to Beethoven sym 9 and always remember that just because others now perform it again and again- emphasis on now, of course - doesn't prevent me from enjoying it as much as it deserves.) but yes, one does all this in hope and occasionally that hope is rewarded (and the time I find, anyhow, doesn't feel all that much wasted even if not- usually.  To the music-makers )

[albion]

Hmm... In reply to some of the points raised in the posts above, firstly I do not think that anybody (including myself) has claimed (or even implied) that York Bowen's symphonies are 'masterpieces'. But then neither would I place Raff or Rufinatscha's symphonies in the same league as Brahms, Dvorak or Tchaikovsky. If the criterion for acceptance is 'significance' then very few unsung composers had any historical significance whatsoever - their very obscurity and neglect negated any chance they had of exercising any influence on musical evolution. Genius as distinct from talent is extraordinarily rare in music as it is in all the arts.

No member of this forum should ever be afraid of advocating his or her personal enthusiasms, even at the risk of ridicule. There is absolutely no harm whatsoever in promulgating music of second- or third-tier quality and letting those who enjoy it do so in the privacy of their own listening experience. Enthusiasm backed by knowledge has clearly always been one of the best aspects about this forum and I'm slightly incredulous at the implication above that too much unsung repertoire is being recorded indiscriminately - if one composer's student symphony cannot compare with another's, so what? I'd like the opportunity to hear them both and make my own mind up, thanks very much! I subscribe to the lessez-faire school of musical appreciation and would not presume to deny anyone their musical enjoyment.

I rather like the circus-at-the-end-of-the-side-road analogy: there is an inherent attraction for all of us in exploring the byways of the repertoire. Part of this is an acceptance that generally byways are byways for a reason - they are not the main artery routes of music, but they are often much more scenic and all the more attractive for having less traffic on them.

[Alan Howe]

Interesting. Because this is where we may part company. No harm in that, of course. But I do believe that there is a difference between sharing one's personal musical enthusiasms and claiming objective significance for certain pieces of music.

My own musical tastes are, I think, pretty catholic and I would never deny anyone the right to express or advocate their own musical preferences - after all, that's partly what this forum is for. But I do believe in trying to come to judgments as to musical quality. In other words, it's OK to be negative - sometimes - because not everything is equally good. Far from denying someone else their musical enjoyment, careful criticism, properly grounded and thought-through, actually enhances someone's ability to listen with discernment. I actually want to move beyond what I know and like and beyond my own current opinions.

My experience with a composer like Raff has persuaded me that a good deal of persistence is necessary to achieve this. In his case I have come to the conclusion that the picture is pretty mixed. He was a composer touched by genius, not an out and out genius such as Brahms. However, look hard enough and you will find music as great as anything written in the 19th century. After listening to a good deal of Bowen, I couldn't say the same thing about him and the 20th century. Of course, as you say, one needs the opportunity to hear his music and no-one could be more grateful than me to be able to buy recordings of his music. But in the end, I want to come to some sort of conclusion about the quality of the music. And I am thoroughly grateful to all the members of this forum for helping me to do so...

BTW Apologies if I have stepped on anyone's toes...

[albion]

Alan, no digits have been impaired or otherwise maimed in the ongoing debate. In any of my posts (and there are quite a few of these now) I don't think I've ever claimed 'objective significance' (as opposed to subjective) for any composer: Bowen is probably a late-romantic footnote, but none the worse for being that. Personally, I think his second symphony is a glorious riot of orchestral and melodic bravura, but I'm happy for anybody not to purchase the Chandos disc (and thereby miss out on the opportunity to form their own opinion). 

[Alan Howe]

Don't worry - I'm a sucker for this kind of stuff myself. But another me looks on and shakes his head (probably at the cost!). Ah well...

[Alan Howe]

Well, the first Symphony turns out to be a very happy creation indeed - although what it's got specifically to do with Mendelssohn or Schumann, I've no idea. I suspect anyone listening to this with a knowledge of the late 19th century repertoire will recognise it for what it is - a fluent, confident, beautifully written yet otherwise unremarkable example of a symphony written in the broad German tradition as mediated by such as Sullivan, Stanford, Parry, etc. Its three movements take around half an hour to play, so actually it has quite an expansive, late-Romantic feel to it, unlike the more compact athleticism of symphonies by Mendelssohn, etc. Thus it belongs with the engaging student symphonies of composers like Georg Schumann, Enescu, and Dohnanyi. Lovely stuff! Another triumph for Chandos...

[Alan Howe]

Now onto Symphony No.2. Ah yes, that Fry's Turkish Delight opening...we're in more exotic territory here. More anon!

[Syrelius]

All I'm trying to say is that there has to be discernment as to what is good and worthy of recording (which, I imagine, the Bowen symphonies are) and what is actually rather more than that. I sensed the same sort of over-estimate of the early Coleridge-Taylor Symphony on this forum: glad though one was to hear it, it's not a great piece by any stretch of the imagination.

Hello Alan,

I do agree that there is a danger in labelling too many works as masterpieces -  it might become a sort of reversed Cry Wolf... However, those who commented the Coleridge Taylor symphony can more or less be divided into two categories; those who found the work charming, though immature, and those who simply didn't think it was worth much at all. I can't see that anyone claimed it was a masterpiece.

Personally, I do not jump into new masterpieces that often anymore, but I am also pleased when I find a work that can bring me true pleasure. Of course, I would like to find more "new" composers of the same importance as, for instance, Berwald or Suk, but one often has to settle for the pleasures of a Coleridge Taylor or Kopylov symphony...  Of course, many members will not find those works charming at all - it's a matter of taste. On the other hand, there are most likely members who do not think that Berwald and Suk are that important either...

[jimmattt]

I liked what Dafrieze had to say, it seems sometimes the anticipation is greater than the long-awaited music, but I like hearing something for the first time anyway, maybe it's like sex, the first time is pretty much the most exciting, and one strives forever to match the thrill, yet even if you never quite match it, it sure is fun to keep trying!  And I don't care which composer  is marginal or central or supercalifragilisticexpialidocious, I want to listen for myself, and if I like it, I may tell you or not, and if I don't like it I also may or may not tell you. And the world will go on with or without my opinion, and I will go on wanting to hear something new for the first time, then deciding if I want to hear it again and again or not.