Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet - VERSION TWO

[Christopher]

Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet Overture exists in three versions.  The third and final version (from 1880) is the most famous, and there are many recordings of it.  There are also quite a few recordings of the original verion (premiered in 1870).   But does anyone know if there are any recordings of the second version (premiered in 1872)?

This could be developed into a broader theme - are there alternative versions of great pieces which can stand as good works in their own right?

[Delicious Manager]

I didn't even know there WAS a 'version two'. Are you sure about this? I feel sure someone would have recorded it if it existed.

[alberto]

IMP MCD-55 (Dalia Atlas, Pilha. Orch.London) states that it contains the "first version". The not very clear booklet says Tchajcovskj revised the first version one year after the completion (of the first version) and finally released the final version in1880.

[alberto]

I try to attempt a sketchy answer to the "BROADER THEME" : "are there alternative version of GREAT pieces which can stand as good works in their own right"?.
Obviously I have to omit:
-classical and pre-classical
-operatic works
-Bruckner (worthy one book)
-Liszt (worthy one very long book)
The first cases coming to my mind are:
-Mendelssohn Scottish Sym.
                       Italian Sym.
                       The Hebrides overture
-Schumann      Fourth Symphony
                        Second piano Sonata
                         Third piano Sonata
-Tchajcovskj     Second Symphony
-Prokofiev         Seventh Symphony
-Beethoven       String Quartet op. 130
-Mahler             First Symphony
                         Totenfeier as alternative to mvt. 1 of Second Symphony
                         Sixth Symphony (here the alternatives are lesser)
-Britten             Piano Concerto
-Sibelius            Fifth Symphony
                         En Saga
                         Violin Concerto
-Rachmaninov   Third Piano Concerto
                          Fourth Piano Concerto
                          Second Piano Sonata
In some cases the improvements don't  seem to me evident (and if I remember well in the Mendelssohn cases it is the first version to be performed; but I would rate of even value the versions).
In the Sibelius cases the improvements of second versions appear to me considerable, but anyway the first versions could stand as good in their own right.
The theme is too broad and my tentative answer is just a sampler. I leave the topic to somebody else.

[Delicious Manager]

I try to attempt a sketchy answer to the "BROADER THEME" : "are there alternative version of GREAT pieces which can stand as good works in their own right"?.
Obviously I have to omit:
-classical and pre-classical
-operatic works
-Bruckner (worthy one book)
-Liszt (worthy one very long book)
The first cases coming to my mind are:
-Mendelssohn Scottish Sym.
                       Italian Sym.
                       The Hebrides overture
-Schumann      Fourth Symphony
                        Second piano Sonata
                         Third piano Sonata
-Tchajcovskj     Second Symphony
-Prokofiev         Seventh Symphony
-Beethoven       String Quartet op. 130
-Mahler             First Symphony
                         Totenfeier as alternative to mvt. 1 of Second Symphony
                         Sixth Symphony (here the alternatives are lesser)
-Britten             Piano Concerto
-Sibelius            Fifth Symphony
                         En Saga
                         Violin Concerto
-Rachmaninov   Third Piano Concerto
                          Fourth Piano Concerto
                          Second Piano Sonata
In some cases the improvements don't  seem to me evident (and if I remember well in the Mendelssohn cases it is the first version to be performed; but I would rate of even value the versions).
In the Sibelius cases the improvements of second versions appear to me considerable, but anyway the first versions could stand as good in their own right.
The theme is too broad and my tentative answer is just a sampler. I leave the topic to somebody else.

I think some of the above might be a little confused.

Mendelssohn - Italian Symphony. The version played today is the ORIGINAL version. Mendelssohn made a revision, but somehow it never caught on. The only recording I know of the revised version is that conducted by John Eliot Gardiner.

Prokofiev - Symphony No 7. There is only one version of this symphony (Prokofiev died soon after its completion), although he DID provide an 'alternative ending' - an upbeat conclusion to satisfy Stalin's cronies. The original, subdued ending is by far the better of the two and is the one most commonly played. Prokofiev left two versions of the Fourth Symphony. The original version of 1930, opus 47 takes themes from his ballet The Prodigal Son. He revised and extended the symphony in 1947. It landed-up so different from the original that he gave it its own opus number (112) and allowed both versions to co-exist. A similar exercise befell the Cello Concerto Op 58, which was substantially revised and expanded as the Sinfonia Concertante Op 125. There are 'alternative endings' also for Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra and Stravinsky's Petrushka.

Beethoven - String Quartet Op 130. Although Beethoven wrote an alternative finale for the quartet in 1826 to replace the Grosse Fuge (which became an independent work Op 133), the remainder of the work remained unchanged. Interestingly, there is an 'original' version of the String Quartet in F major op 18 No 1 which is longer than the version now played; Beethoven trimmed the work and re-wrote some of the parts to make them more idiomatic for the string instruments.

Rakhmaninov - Piano Concertos. I am aware that the composer revised the First and Fourth Piano Concertos, but not that there was an alternative version of the Third.

Rather like the Prokofiev Fourth, there are two completely independent versions of the Fifth Symphony by Langgaard.

I also know of 'alternative versions' of:

Brahms - Piano Quintet Op 34 (also exists in original STRING quintet version)
Copland - Appalachian Spring
Debussy - Several slightly differing versions of several pieces (eg La mer, Nocturnes
Dvořák - Piano Concerto
Falla - El amor brujo
Grainger - Take your pick!!
Grieg - Piano Concerto
Haydn - several symphonies, including No 22 (Philosopher), 53 (Imperiale), 63, 103
Ives - Symphony No 3
Khachaturian - Gayaneh
Mozart - Symphony No 40 K 550
Pärt - Fratres (several versions)
Prokofiev - Russian Overture Op 72
Rimsky-Korsakov - Symphony/Suite Antar
Stravinsky - The Firebird (1910 ballet, 1911 suite, 1919 suite, 1945 suite)
Stravinsky - Petrushka (1911 and 1947 versions)
Stravinsky - Symphonies of Wind Instruments
Stravinsky - Apollo/Apollon musagète
Tchaikovsky - Hamlet (the full 'Overture Fantasia' and the shortened version for smaller orchestra adapted for the incidental music Hamlet).
Tchaikovsky - Piano Concerto No 2
Vaughan Williams - Piano Concerto
Vaughan Willilams - A London Symphony (Symphony No 2)
Walton - Viola Concerto

[albion]

One of the most startling 'original versions' of well-known works to have come to light recently has to be that of Mendelssohn's Hebrides Overture. Completed in Rome on 16th December 1830, and originally entitled The Lonely Isle, the work was thoroughly revised in 1832 for it's London premiere. The development section veers off into unexpected waters and there are countless fascinating details which the composer changed in attaining the structural perfection of the final version.

This first version is now thankfully available in an excellent recording under Riccardo Chailly -

[Mark Thomas]

I bought this CD on a whim in, of all places, Tokyo, and was quite startled  by how different the Hebrides Overture was when it was The Lonley Isle. I must say that it works very well and would not have disgraced Mendelssohn if he'd left it at that. Of course, the final version is so familiar that it is actually quite difficult to be dispasionate about whether it is in fact an improvement, but in this instance I do feel that it clearly is.

There are several recordings of the "completed" Third Piano Concerto. The first movemnet is powerful and effective but, once that's out of the way, the ratio of "completion" to "original" goes the wrong way and it's tepid stuff.

I can't remember the differences between the "Scottish" Symphony recorded here and the version which has come down to us, so deep an impression did it leave on me.

[Lionel Harrsion]

Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet Overture exists in three versions.  The third and final version (from 1880) is the most famous, and there are many recordings of it.  There are also quite a few recordings of the original verion (premiered in 1870).   But does anyone know if there are any recordings of the second version (premiered in 1872)?

This could be developed into a broader theme - are there alternative versions of great pieces which can stand as good works in their own right?

There certainly is a 'version 2' (1870) but, apart from the end, it's almost the same as the final version.  As the note appended to this version on IMSLP says, "Bars 1-459 of the 2nd version... are identical to the 3rd version (1880). This extract commences at bar 460".

[Lionel Harrsion]

Now I think about it, there are two versions of Tchaikovsky's Rococo Variations as well - the original, which almost no-one plays and the version which Fitzenhagen made in 1878, which everybody plays.  After the theme and the first three variations, Fitzenhagen re-ordered the remaining variations and deleted Tchaikovsky's variation VIII altogether.  Why most cellists persist in playing this bastardised version is beyond me, since the original has been readily available since Russian cellist Victor Kubatsky published the original version in 1956.

[alberto]

In my much less than good (or even acceptable) English, I defined my reply/intervention as "sketchy" and "tentative", "just a sampler", listing just the first cases coming to mind: and so it was. I declared to look forward to someone else  developing better and expanding the very, very broad topic.
So I thank Delicious Manager for his remarks and his extended list.
I would just point out that the topic is so broad that it lends itself to various kind of development.
Alternative version may have different meanings.
Pieces scored for different instruments/forces : Brahms op.34 (also for two pianos - not as a draft).
Pieces differing for some bars (Prokofiev Seventh - Bartok Concerto for Orch., the first with substantial difference, the latter with not really substantial difference).
Pieces differing for one movement. Beethoven op.130 ending with the Grosse Fugue or with an alternative Finale.Allegro. Britten Piano Concerto.
Also a concerto with different cadenzas of different length by the composer (that was to me the case of Rachmaninov Third Concerto, if I remember well).
There could be also the case of different titles, different forces and partially different music (Falla's El Corregidor Y la Molinera becomes El sombrero des tres Picos; case not quite different, apart changing of title, from first version of El Amor Brujo for "cantaora" and small ensemble becoming a ballet for mezzo and symphonic orchestra).
Most subjective the concept of "great piece", where freedom rules. For myself, I hardly would consider "great" many  pieces by Grainger, scored in alternative versions (with the possible exception of "the Warriors": about that I know nothing about alternative versions).
(By the way, Mendelssohn Italian symphony second version was first recorded by Claves, cond. Oleg Caetani).     

[JimL]

Tchaikovsky's 2nd PC was 'revised' by other hands.  Siloti comes to mind immediately.  He's the one who hacked up the slow movement, and I believe he also trimmed the first movement cadenza, and maybe rendered the solo part in general a bit less challenging.

[alberto]

The Dvorak PC wasn't revised by Vilém Kurz ?

[Norbit]

Now I think about it, there are two versions of Tchaikovsky's Rococo Variations as well - the original, which almost no-one plays and the version which Fitzenhagen made in 1878, which everybody plays.  After the theme and the first three variations, Fitzenhagen re-ordered the remaining variations and deleted Tchaikovsky's variation VIII altogether.  Why most cellists persist in playing this bastardised version is beyond me, since the original has been readily available since Russian cellist Victor Kubatsky published the original version in 1956.

I always thought that the Rococo Variations was a rather long and boring piece until I heard the original version. I know Shafran said that while he had played both, he preferred the Fitzenhagen version for the more climactic ending. I agree that Fitzenhagen's arrangement makes the ending more climactic but it does so at the expense of the middle of the piece.

[JimL]

The Dvorak PC wasn't revised by Vilém Kurz ?

Yes, it was.  Rudolf Firkusny also spliced together the Kurz and original versions for his Westminster LP, although, I've heard he subsequently recorded the original version.

[TerraEpon]

Yeah, Tchaik's PC#2 exists only in one version by him.

On the flip side, the PC #1 exists in three -- the first has been recorded here http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=11958&name_role1=1&comp_id=3209&genre=154&bcorder=195&name_id=15204&name_role=2
(which also contains an alternate 'concert' ending for the first movement of the Concert Fantasia)

Incidentally there's NO different versions of Rach's PC#3 -- just two different cadenzas, both of which are used frequently.
There are two of #1 however, and THREE of #4 (both earlier ones recorded, the earliest on the same as original #1).
Rachmaninov is an interesting case -- as is well known, he had multiple versions of other stuff like the second sonata and a couple of the Morceaux de Fantaisie -- interesting about the later is that he recorded (on piano roll) a sort of 'intermediate' version for two works, that show some but not all changes.

I could go on and on about 'versions' (bless BIS for the Sibelius Edition where they do everything....) but normally they are often quite hard to get a fix on when they haven't been recorded, outside of "it exists"