Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet - VERSION TWO

[eschiss1]

I think most alternative versions of Sibelius works are being recorded where possible thanks to Robert von Bähr's initiative over at BIS.
Similarly the fellow over at Laurel Records is said to have helped get the early version of Beethoven's opus 18/1 premiered on his label- again, so I gather.
To distinguish between sketches and drafts on the one hand and versions I suppose I would have to suggest that versions have different characters on-the-large - you can definitely tell the different versions of Bruckner 2 or 8 apart (hrm. in the case of symphony 2 because movements have been bodily shifted around by hauling equipment... erm... I mean, because the scherzo is in 2nd place, rather, in the earlier version that I've heard anyway... for the most obvious reason- for symphony 8 there's something curiously longer about the first movement- and the ending seems different, somehow - and there's that trio in the 2nd movement too- speaking whether one's more used to the final version or - hrm. not sure which earlier version it is I've heard. it does get confusing; I should consult a reference... or again, as with Rach 3, stick with Bruckner 6, an anchor point of more or less stability )

[Delicious Manager]

I think most alternative versions of Sibelius works are being recorded where possible thanks to Robert von Bähr's initiative over at BIS.
Similarly the fellow over at Laurel Records is said to have helped get the early version of Beethoven's opus 18/1 premiered on his label- again, so I gather.
To distinguish between sketches and drafts on the one hand and versions I suppose I would have to suggest that versions have different characters on-the-large - you can definitely tell the different versions of Bruckner 2 or 8 apart (hrm. in the case of symphony 2 because movements have been bodily shifted around by hauling equipment... erm... I mean, because the scherzo is in 2nd place, rather, in the earlier version that I've heard anyway... for the most obvious reason- for symphony 8 there's something curiously longer about the first movement- and the ending seems different, somehow - and there's that trio in the 2nd movement too- speaking whether one's more used to the final version or - hrm. not sure which earlier version it is I've heard. it does get confusing; I should consult a reference... or again, as with Rach 3, stick with Bruckner 6, an anchor point of more or less stability )

Bruckner is certainly a minefield, although Nos 5, 6, 7 and 9 present fewer problems than some of the others. These are the various versions of the Bruckner symphonies:
Symphony 'No.00' in F minor - 1 version, 1863 (ed Nowak)
Symphony 'No 0' in D minor (actually written between Nos 1 and 2) - 2 editions of the original 1869 score (Nowak, Wöss) with minor variations of detail
Symphony No 1 in C minor
- Original 1866 Linz version
- Revised 1877 Linz version (2 slightly differing editions - Nowak, Haas)
- Revised 1891 version
- Doblinger 1893 edition of 1891 revision
Symphony No 2 in C minor
- Original 1872 version
- Performance version of 1873
- Revised 1876 version
- Revised 1877 version (2 slightly differing editions - Nowak, Haas)
- Revised 1892 version
Symphony No 3 in D minor
- Original 1873 version
- Slightly revised 1874 version (almost identical to 1873)
- Revised 1876 version of Adagio only
- Revised 1877 version
- Revised 1878 version (almost identical to 1877)
- Revised 1889 version
- Revised 1890 version (very similar to 1889)
Symphony No 4 in E flat
- Original 1874 version
- Revised 1878 version (including Volkfest finale)
- Revised 1880 version
- Revised 1881 version (based on 1880)
- Revised 1886 version
- Revised 1888 version (2 differing editions - Korstvedt, Loewe)
Symphony No 5 in B flat
- Original 1876 version
- Revised 1878 version (2 almost identical editions, Nowak, Haas)
- Revised 1896 version
Symphony No 6 in A major - exists in only one original 1881 version (2 slightly differing editions - Nowak, Haas)
Symphony No 7 in E major - exists in only one original 1885 version (2 almost identical editions - Nowak, Haas)
Symphony No 8 in C minor
- Original 1887 version
- Mixed 1887/90 edition (Haas)
- Revised 1890 version (ed Nowak)
Symphony No 9 in D minor
- Original 1894 version (3 almost identical editions - Nowak, Orel, Cohrs)
- Corrupt posthumous Doblinger 1903 edition (ed Loewe)

[Hofrat]

Beethoven:  "Fidelio" and its two previous versions "Leonore 1805" and "Leonore 1806."  Lots of good music on the cutting room floor.

Joachim Eggert:  Symphony in C-minor versions 1805 and 1807.

[eschiss1]

If memory serves, the "gives me a headache even thinking about" category applies to the versions of works by Liszt, Grainger, Busoni, Sorabji somewhat, and certain others- performer-composers especially though not only - composer-pianists those, but Langgaard (Rued, not Siegfried), an organist-composer, definitely belongs very very much in that list as well.  (though compiling a truly scholarly worklist for a composer is /strike/probably/-strike/ a difficult task even when their work output does not contain a list of different versions, quasi-versions, "If it is signed by me, it may be published" (Liszt.), ...) (oh. Ives, too, yes? not as a performer-composer, but as someone whose worklist gets extremely confusing for this particular reason.)

[Lionel Harrsion]

Yeah, Tchaik's PC#2 exists only in one version by him.

On the flip side, the PC #1 exists in three -- the first has been recorded here http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=11958&name_role1=1&comp_id=3209&genre=154&bcorder=195&name_id=15204&name_role=2
(which also contains an alternate 'concert' ending for the first movement of the Concert Fantasia)

Incidentally there's NO different versions of Rach's PC#3 -- just two different cadenzas, both of which are used frequently.
There are two of #1 however, and THREE of #4 (both earlier ones recorded, the earliest on the same as original #1).
Rachmaninov is an interesting case -- as is well known, he had multiple versions of other stuff like the second sonata and a couple of the Morceaux de Fantaisie -- interesting about the later is that he recorded (on piano roll) a sort of 'intermediate' version for two works, that show some but not all changes.

I could go on and on about 'versions' (bless BIS for the Sibelius Edition where they do everything....) but normally they are often quite hard to get a fix on when they haven't been recorded, outside of "it exists"

Just some idle ramblings: in those cases in which the composer has second (or multiple) thoughts, it's interesting to think about the motivations and the outcomes.  Consider the Rachmaninov Concertos, for instance: the revised (1917) version of the 1st Concerto is much more successful than the original student composition of 1891 with its longueurs and overwriting.  On the other hand, I find the first version of 4th concerto to be much more satisfying than the later versions.  Once one has become familiar with it, the later revisions strike one as having been butchered much in the way that the 2nd Symphony and the 3rd Concerto frequently were at one time.

Rachmaninov's well-known lack of self confidence did him no favours in this regard.  Remember his recounting performances of the Corelli Variations in which the more the audience coughed and shuffled, the fewer of the variations he'd play.  It was that misplaced self-doubt that caused him to revise the 4th Concerto, not an intellectual conviction that there was anything wrong with it.  I think the same applies to the B-flat minor Sonata - the original is a much more effective piece of architecture, to my way of thinking.

Sibelius's judgement was built on sounder foundations, however; he got it absolutely right in revising the Violin Concerto - the tighter structure results in a piece that sweeps one along much more powerfully than the more diffuse and rambling original version, interesting though it is. 

[Amphissa]

In the case of Rachmaninoff's 3rd concerto, the only notable revision was the cadenza. There are two cadenzas, and there are ample recordings with each. Both versions of his 2nd Sonata are also readily available on recordings.

I am much more intrigued by the original version of the 1st Sonata. To my knowledge, it has never been recorded, and has never been performed other than by Rachmaninoff himself. The revised version is quite the challenge as it is -- half an hour of a gazillion notes from which the pianist must try to illuminate the beauties within. The original version was reportedly 10-15 minutes longer and even more challenging.

Rachmaninoff found no champion for the work. Of course, there were fewer pianists capable of doing justice to the piece back then, and they had plenty of other music to play.

I seem to remember that the original version was to be published a few years ago. I would love to hear a performance of the original work. The problem is, there have been very few recordings of even the revised version worthy of a second listen. The single best performance ever of the work (caught on record anyway) was Yakov Kasman's performance during the Van Cliburn Competition. There, in that one performance, all the greatness of the sonata is revealed. No other recording (and I've heard them all), including Kasman's own studio recording, really plumb the depths and capture the beauty of the piece. How treacherous must be the original version? I fear only Rachmaninoff himself could have done it justice.

[TerraEpon]

Huh. I've never come across anything about more than one version of the first sonata, at least nothing in a finished state (I.E. none of the catalogs, IIRC, say anything about there being more than one version whereas they do with PC1, PC4, Sonata 2, the morceaux, etc.)

[Amphissa]

It is discussed in the Wikileaks article, for one. The version played today averages 35-40 minutes playing time. The original version was about 12-15 minutes longer -- a real monster of a piece.

And by the way, there were actually 3 versions of Rachmaninoff's 2nd sonata. The original version was longer. Rachmaninoff chopped it down to around 18 minutes. Horowitz thought he went too far, and Horowitz produced a third version, which was a compromise. He did this with Rachmaninoff's knowledge and agreement. Rachmaninoff was never really satisfied with the piece. The Horowitz version is actually played and recorded a lot these days, but there are recordings of all three available.

[TerraEpon]

Yeah, but Horowitz's doesn't 'count' any more than, say, Khachaturian wrote a flute concerto.

[Amphissa]

Agree. Rachmaninoff crafted two versions of Sonata 2. The Horowitz compromise doesn't count. (But a lot of people think they are hearing the Rachmaninoff revision, when they are really hearing the Horowitz version, on a lot of recordings.) I personally like the original version better than the revision.

[eschiss1]

...
... Wikileaks or Wikipedia?

[Amphissa]

haha -- my bad -- Wikipedia.

[fuhred]

To get back to the original topic, the second (1870) version HAS been recorded - once! The BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra is conducted by Baldur Bronimann. This recording was made specially for a BBC radio series in 2007 called the 'Tchaikovsky Experience'. During this series the BBC recorded lots of previously unrecorded Tchaikovsky works, such as the 1870 version of Romeo and Juliet, the original version of the 'Winter Daydreams' symphony, the first version of the opera Cherevichki (originally known as Vakula the Smith), and other small piano pieces, choruses and songs.
Sadly, none of these recordings are for sale commercially yet (a big BOO to the BBC for their lack of marketing savvy), and there is no way to access them. We just have to hope that someone decides to release them on CD one day, or maybe some nice person who was lucky enough to record them off the radio will upload them to YouTube...
About the 1870 Romeo, it is exactly the same as the 1880 version except for the last 80 bars or so. Most of the ideas in this coda are there, but in a different order. This link will give you more information about it:

http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/Works/Orchestral/TH042/index.html

I hope this helps!

[eschiss1]

I remember that series (though i remember it as the Tchaikovsky and Stravinsky experience, but yes- lots of previously unrecorded Tchaik. The BBC had done a few other such week-long series in the previous few years and very good ones, as I remember.  There have been a few attempts to make some of the BBC archives available on CD- IMP Classics had an imprint for awhile that included a very! fine CD with two Boughton symphonies conducted by Downes, for example - but I imagine licensing difficulties amount to immense migraine headaches somewhat as with similar efforts for the huge Russian radio archives (or so I have heard in relation to them too. Some such efforts have been more above-board than others, in -that- case, rumor has it, but that's another story and anyway...) 

But it would be good... as would a good new recording of course. Thanks!

Eric

[giles.enders]

The really radical revisions were Tchaikovsky's symphony which he revised or rather reused some of the music as a piano concerto and Beethoven's violin concerto which he revised as a piano concerto, not to mention Hummel's mandolin concerto which he revised as a piano concertino.  There are also the Tchaikovsky ballets, in particular Swan Lake to which he made substantial revisions after the first performance.