Dimitrie Cuclin (1885-1978)

[JollyRoger]

I trust that everyone agrees that music is worthless unless it is shared.
My intentions as a Cuclin advocate seemed valid as I considered sharing my first thoughts on this music to be of some merit.
Hindsite being 20/20 I should have waited.
While I did expect some positive feedback, I completely mistaken..nearly all responders found Cuclin's music to be of no value and even repugnant to some. And this from members whose knowledge and opinions I value highly.
I'll keep it in mind that musical opinions are subjective judgements, and we all see (and hear) the world differently.
I did appreciate the experience and knowledge gained from this thread from which I will now exit.

[Alan Howe]

No need to exit the conversation at all. I for one am thoroughly grateful to you for having opened up the topic, even if I have disagreed with your assessment of Cuclin's music.

[eschiss1]

I'd love to join in the conversation about the first symphony, but it's the one work in the general conversation I know I haven't heard or seen. Is there a recording of it somewhere, may I ask?... Symphony no.1, 1910...

No one's confusing the 11th symphony with it or something? Or one of the others? Or maybe no.20, since semioh mentions having listened to nos. 1 and 11 but not to no.20? (And no.20 was after all first posted with its number, in Romanian, not as "no.20", which was elucidated in the discussion section, not in the primary, downloads, section. So there was room for confuzzlement. Hrm... )

(Apparently the last time I asked this, a while ago, it either got lost in the flow, or people thought I was being my usual, jokey self. So I ask again...)

To my knowledge only the piano concerto, and symphonies 9, 11, 13, 16 and 20- I think... have been uploaded.

[Alan Howe]

Try here for starters, Eric:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoRlVZJ0Q0A

[Gauk]

Number 1 is available on the Youtube Channel in the original post, as well as number 11, but you have to hunt around for the individual movements. It is certainly indebted to Miaskovsky, and has an unusual structure of slow-fast-fast-fast, and I think this is real and not just the movement numbering is mixed up (though I have not seen the score).

It's worth reiterating here that identifying weaknesses in Cuclin's music (or anyone else's) doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed. It would be a terrible world where one could only ever listen to masterpieces.

[Alan Howe]

Well said indeed.

[eschiss1]

ah, thanks. I didn't cast my net widely enough there...

[Gauk]

Number 13 seems to me a rather more successful work. It's still a very bad performance. I feel there is much more of a sense of development throughout the work than with the first symphony, that links the episodes together - mostly. Some of the transitions are badly played, and others one suspects would challenge much better performers. And some sections sound rather trite, especially the quasi-fugal section towards the end of the finale.

It no longer sounds anything like Miaskovsky; in fact it is much more 19th Century leaning than the 1st symphony. It would certainly be interesting to hear what a good conductor and orchestra could make of it.

[Alan Howe]

Agreed. The YouTube performances are pretty awful.

[Mark Thomas]

I don't know how typical of Cuclin's output is his Symphony No.1, and I'm loath to just jump on a Cuclin-bashing bandwagon but, having listened to the work on YouTube, I'm afraid that I could hear little of merit in it. The kindest description of this work would be "episodic", although "repetitively episodic" is nearer the mark. I really couldn't detect any real symphonic thought, any development or organic growth in the piece, just a series of sometimes attractive, but generally unrelated sections, stitched together and re-used. I can quite see why some find it attractive music, because some of the sounds he makes, some of the textures he conjures up, some of the tunes he writes are appealing. But for me, there's nothing more. Wasn't it Wagner who accused Meyerbeer of using "effects without causes"? He could have been writing about Cuclin, on the evidence of his First Symphony. Should I try some of the others?

[Alan Howe]

Should I try some of the others?

Yes. But don't hold your breath...

[semloh]

Should I try some of the others?

Always worth trying, since taste is a personal matter, but I agree with Alan, so if you are prepared to forsake the romantic for half an hour, I'd try the piano concerto. 

[UnsungMasterpieces]

This Romanian composer has already been discussed on this forum, but there's no topic fully dedicated to him yet, so I am opening one up.

Dimitrie Cuclin was born in 1885 in Galaţi, Romania, and he died in 1978, of complications of a heart disease he apparently contracted in the communist work camps in the early 50s.
His father, Constantin Cuclin, was a music teacher from Bessarabia who emigrated to Romania.

Cuclin was a student of his father at first, then he went to France with a scholarship he obtained in Romania, where was a student of Charles-Marie Widor and of Vincent d'Indy.

He has composed 20 symphonies (which are, according to Wikipedia, monumental.) Some of them are really long, for example the 12th Symphony lasts 6 hours (the manuscript is 1235 pages). The manuscript of his 10th Symphony apparently is 616 pages (could this suggest it lasts 3 hours? I haven't found the score anywhere, so I can't be sure of it, but let's work with this length for now.)

He's also composed some large operas of 3-5 acts, all with his own libretti, and chamber music and lots of vocal music.
He was also a philosopher, poet, writer, translator, musicologist, and teacher.

The only (legal) recordings of his works that I'm aware of are of his 11th, 13th & 16th symphonies, which have appeared on LP on the Romanian label Electrecord (conducted by Emanuel Elenescu & Mircae Basarab), and apparently a Violin Sonata has also appeared on LP, on this same label.

All in all, this individual has done a lot in his lifetime and is definitely worth more attention!

[Alan Howe]

I'm unsure whether all of Cuclin's music is suitable for discussion at UC. Symphony No.1 sounds promising, though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoRlVZJ0Q0A

[UnsungMasterpieces]

I think he's suitable for discussion though, because he was influenced by Charles-Marie Widor & Vincent d'Indy and the fact that he rejected avant-garde, and even took a hostile attitude towards it. I've also had several listens to his 11th symphony many times (because I like it a lot) and it doesn't sound anything avant-garde to me. The LP is a bit old though, from 1967.

Also, there aren't that many composers that composed works with such extreme lengths (a symphony of 6 hours, that's not something you encounter a lot), so at least for some people this might be a very interesting composer to research further!

And an interesting development as well, which has become worth mentioning: some people of the church from the town where my grandparents live go to Romania a few times a year to bring clothes for the less fortunate. As far as I know they will go again in June, and so I told my grandmother about this composers, and so she passed on a note to them about this composer and what I know. I gave my e-mail in it as well, so perhaps around June or July I might get some more information about where the scores of these symphonies might be (or not if I'm unlucky!) and if it might be possible to arrange a recording, because in the near future I am planning to set up my own label for forgotten classical music. Let's hope this will yield some interesting results!