Sung composers that you just "don't get"

[jerfilm]

Amphissa, perhaps your dislike of Mahler comes from over-exposure.   I think it's like hearing the latest popular song for the 483rd time.  You loved it when you first heard it but now you're just plain sick of hearing it.   For me, one of the things that turned me on to looking for unsung compositions was, I was tired of hearing the Beethoven Tchaikovsky, etc.   I love music; I wanted to hear something new.  Something different.  I love Mahler. He speaks to me in ways that no other composer does.  But if I got a steady diet of him,  he'd soon go the way of Beethoven 6.  Not being a concert hall musician or conductor, when I get to the point where I can hum my way through a 65 minute symphony - and I love being able to do that - I realize I am about saturated and tell myself, "Self, you'd best not be listening to this piece often, any more or you're going to be tired of hearing it...."

Except that, perhaps sadly, I have never been able to assimilate the experimental and non-tonality based compositions of the last century.  Recalling the first time I heard something along these lines, Webern I think, I remember thinking "He can't be serious...." but obviously he was.   Over the past 50 years, sitting in Orchestra Hall, I've been moved to tears probably a dozen times.  And I always end up reflecting - how can ANY human being conceive anything so beautiful; so moving??  Perhaps that would make an interesting thread - what work or works has moved you to tears.......

One of the very best things about this forum is that we don't call each other names when we disagree. 

Aw crap, I ramble.  Sorry about that.  A prerogative of old age, I hope....

Jerry

[Amphissa]

And which version of the 5th would you propose, Alan? The version with the traditional over-the-top bombastic final movement? Or the supposedly more accurate/authentic version of Rostropovich, which is supported by the notes in Testimony?

To me, Shostakovich symphonies are Mahler with coffins and clowns. I've never been able to warm up to him.

[Alan Howe]

The reason I mentioned Haitink was that his version is exceptionally beautifully played and recorded and seems to give the piece greater stature. Others would say that it is too serious and plays down the composer's sense of irony. It was simply my suggestion as a possible way in to S5 for a listener who hadn't really tried the piece. If someone knows the work and it doesn't appeal, then Haitink's noble performance probably won't make much difference...

[Amphissa]

Even back when I listened to Mahler a lot, I still couldn't stand those damned marches. I hate marches. My father was career military. After decades of marches, I can testify that marches are not music, have no genetic affinity with music, and have no earthly purpose other than forcing clones to stomp along in synch. A plague and a curse on marches.

Except those that include bagpipes, of course, the musical instrument of the gods.

[semloh]

Amphissa, you're a gem! At last, another bagpipophile! Where ARE all those Concertos for Bagpipes and Large Orchestra?!
You referred to "the traditional over-the-top bombastic final movement" of Mahler's 5th, but as a fan of the Bernstein recordings, I wonder if it is ever possible for Mahler to be over the top.
Didn't you mean, by the way, that it is Mahler who is Shost. with coffins and clowns, rather than vice-versa? I can still see a clown like figure dancing on top of a coffin, to Mahler's 1st sym. in Russell's film...

Apologies if I've misundertood.

[eschiss1]

re bagpipes: don't ask for any work combining bagpipes and conventional orchestra unless you're a fan of microtonality (as far as I know, which is admittedly not very far, a bagpipe's tuning is not that of the 440 orchestra. Still, with the MIDI bagpipes and other innovations mentioned in the Wikipedia article, maybe this is adjustable after all...)

[fuhred]

re BAGPIPES: Try Peter Maxwell Davies' brilliant piece (if you already haven't) An Orkney Wedding and Sunrise. It's not a concerto, but it's the only piece I've heard that adds bagpipes to the orchestra.

[JimL]

Amphissa, you're a gem! At last, another bagpipophile! Where ARE all those Concertos for Bagpipes and Large Orchestra?!
You referred to "the traditional over-the-top bombastic final movement" of Mahler's 5th, but as a fan of the Bernstein recordings, I wonder if it is ever possible for Mahler to be over the top.
Didn't you mean, by the way, that it is Mahler who is Shost. with coffins and clowns, rather than vice-versa? I can still see a clown like figure dancing on top of a coffin, to Mahler's 1st sym. in Russell's film...

Apologies if I've misundertood.

I think he was referring to the finale of Shostakovich 5, not Mahler.

[Amphissa]

Okay, okay, I'm not really a curmudgeon. I do like Shosty's 5th okay. I don't care for most Shostakovich, but there are a few pieces I do like, including the 1st cello concerto.

As far as bagpipes and orchestra, well, this is obviously a deficiency of the orchestra. It has not yet evolved adequately to accompany pipes.

[chill319]

As a child living amidst the wilds of California coastal range, north of San Francisco, I often heard the sound of a solitary Scottish piper wafting across the Russian River from somewhere on the forested eastern hills. It was thrilling to finally see him one day on the crest of a distant peak. No setting could be more perfect for bagpipes than a natural one similar to that in which they were conceived.

By some odd coincidence, on the other side of the North American continent my high school band comprised a score of pipers and no other instruments. To my mind, nothing could be more comical than those instruments essaying the typical marching band repertory unless it would be the same group playing their director's Gershwin-inspired Bagpipe Rhapsody. I've forgotten the director's name, but I didn't "get" his music.

[Alan Howe]

Ah yes, the bagpipes. My favourite instrument. Especially when fading into the distance...

[semloh]

Talking of orchestra & pipes (!) ... yes, PM-D's 'Orkney Wedding' is an interesting and rather enjoyable piece. If we are prepared to diversify slightly, there's also 'Uillean Sunrise' by O'Boyle and, in a more folkish vein, 'The Brendan Voyage' by Davey & O'Flynn. After that I'm afraid we're down to McCartney's 'Mull of Kintyre'! As you rightly said Amphissa, it seems that the orchestra has yet to develop the subtlety required to accompany the Scottish pipes.

Getting back on topic.... my number one pet dislike (not just "don't get") is Philip Glass and all who emulate his pathetic excuse for a style. In think he should have stuck to truck driving, but I promise not to be rude to anyone who has the courage to say they like his work....

[Alan Howe]

Getting back on topic.... my number one pet dislike (not just "don't get") is Philip Glass and all who emulate his pathetic excuse for a style. In think he should have stuck to truck driving, but I promise not to be rude to anyone who has the courage to say they like his work....

I like Glass - until I realise that the music that sounds as though it should introduce something else more interesting is all there is. Then I don't like it...

[mbhaub]

You ought to try playing Glass -- mind numbingly boring. Most of the great composers, and plenty of the not-quite-so-greats knew how to write parts to keep the players interested and involved. Few exceptions. But composers in the last 50-60 years don't care or don't seem to know how to treat performers.  Although for percussionists, a lot of modern music is more interesting than slogging through another Tchaikovsky symphony. The other sin of modern composers is to write music so staggeringly complex and difficult that it is impossible for mere mortals to play: looked good on the computer, but doesn't work for players. And that's one reason among others that a lot of the music written in the last 50-60 years will never make it into the mainstream: if amateurs can't take it up, acceptance is doubtful. Speaking of amateurs, I've played in orchestra where you would swear there are bagpipes. But no, it's just the oboe and bassoons playing in what could charitably be called close-enough tuning.

[Lionel Harrsion]

On the subject of bagpipes, I generally agree with whoever defined a 'gentleman' as 'someone who can play the bagpipes -- but doesn't'.  However, to demolish my own prejudice, I once heard the Scottish National Orchestra (or maybe it was the BBC Scottish SO) play a piece by Ian Whyte, the Scottish conductor and composer -- it may have been his ballet 'Donald of the Burthens' but I can't swear to that at 40 years' distance -- in any event, the climax involved a rip-roaring bagpipe obligato that I have to admit was wonderfully effective.  The one thing I do definitely remember was that the pipes were played by George McIlwham who was perched atop the console of the organ in the Usher Hall.  Great fun.