French Music

[eschiss1]

Hrm. The Gounod is called Suite concertante according to Charles-Gounod.com and was published in 1888. I haven't heard it (will give a listen) and will see what I can find out too...

According to IMSLP, the second movement is an Allegro con fuoco.

[JimL]

I believe the Gounod Concerto in E-flat and the Suite Concertante are two separate works, Eric.  The movements listed on IMSLP aren't the same as the ones given for the concerto, although they do keep the same order.  E.g. the finale for the suite is Vivace, whereas the finale of the concerto is Allegretto pomposo.

[eschiss1]

Interesting. The only work for pedal-piano and orchestra I think I see listed at the very large worklist at the Gounod site is the suite concertante... hrm.
I see Prosseda dates the concerto to 1889 and seems to be claiming that it is a different work from the Suite concertante. What I'd like (on principle...) is some evidence of the authenticity/provenance of this work whose modern premiere he says he is giving... (was it published? Did he find a manuscript? Where? ...) but... outside of the area of this forum I suppose...

[JimL]

I did seem to see the two works listed separately on a different website.  When I get home I'll see if I can find it and post the link.

[eschiss1]

No, I'm pretty much convinced they're either different works or different versions of the same work by now (one published in 1888, one from  or published in 1889, or so claimed, in the case of the Concerto for which one has a recording but no manuscript or published material or anything else so far, not even an unsourced and poorly done typeset ) -I at least and for one will accept that they're not the same

[JimL]

Tell you what I'm gonna do.  I'm gonna take a look at IMSLP's score and see if the Suite is in E-flat.  If it isn't, case closed, they're not the same work.  If it is, I'll play my DL.  I may have lost a step or two at sight reading, but I'm still good enough to tell if what I'm hearin' ain't the same as what I'm seein'!



Done!  Not even close!  The suite is in A Major.  Wonder where the MS or score for the concerto was found?  I've inquired at the pianist's website.  Let's see how long it takes him to (or IF he'll) respond.

[JimL]

Re Gédalge - the symphony no.3 (in F, not D minor) is at IMSLP, which should help with the movement titles problem. See http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.3_(G%C3%A9dalge,_Andr%C3%A9). Glad to have this and the concerto (also uploaded at IMSLP) to hear! (Though your movement titles for the concerto are quite different from "ours" (those at IMSLP) - which are
Moderato maestoso
Andante
Allegro poco a poco accelerando. )

It sure sounds to me like the Gédalge Piano Concerto is in C minor, not C Major.  Unless a vast swath of the first movement is to be ignored as an introduction.  If you look at the score, the signature is 3 flats, and that is C minor.  It only switches to C Major at the very end of the movement.

[Jacky]

Thank you for the Jaell poested today.Her cello sonata is one of the nicest musical utterings I know.

[eschiss1]

JimL- thanks re the Gédalge.
About Magnard- Hymne à la Justice of course is op.14, the score is at IMSLP (in I think a reprint of the 1903 score).

[JimL]

While looking for the tempo designation for the Marteau Violin Concerto (to no avail, alas!) I found this interesting little tidbit.  In 1892 Jules Massenet composed a violin concerto for Marteau.  Is there any more information on this work?

[eschiss1]

Wait, we have the Marteau violin concerto now?
The whole short-score is at IMSLP here but you know that already and are just testing me right? (btw I am just joking about that last part quite entirely)- and the movements are

Allegro risoluto - Allegro energico, ma non troppo.
Adagio
Finale (Rondo). Allegro con fuoco, ma non troppo.

One problem with only having the reduction is- well, I for one had no idea it was so long (great in the sense of time). I expect from the Marteau I've heard (the 3 string quartets for instance) it probably is great though. I look forward to listening. Thanks!

[JimL]

Sorry Eric, I only went about 3 pages deep into the search before throwing up my hands, hoping to find a YouTube performance or the IMSLP score.  Right now, I'm intent on that Massenet violin concerto.  I never even knew he composed one.  I've never seen any reference to it until now.  Any chance it survived the wars?

[eschiss1]

I apologize for the peevish way I put that. You'd think I was depressed or something (it's been a wonderful weekend...) I don't know offhand of a Massenet violin concerto; while I am not very familiar with his operatic music I'm still intrigued. (The opera I like best tends to be by composers whose instrumental music I already appreciate- Nielsen's Saul & David, Schoenberg, Prokofiev's Fiery Angel (especially!)... - Mozart may have thought of himself as an operatic composer fi... anyway... very very offtopic though I like thinking about it, somewhere else perhaps... - will have a look for that Massenet concerto. Perhaps RISM lists it; will try there first unless you already have and I would be wasting my time... )
Ah. No, nothing in RISM with solo violin intersect Massenet; just violin solos from operas (e.g. Manon- actually, I'm thinking of Thaïs, but it's Manon that they list*g* ), a Gavotte with violin, things like that, and not many of them... (with some composers the RISM database has a lot of items listed and I do mean a lot- I think Hans Huber is one such - others- not so many. As a general principle- I have mentioned this already in another topic but worth bumping that topic somewhere- it's good to keep a list of resources on hand to remember for tasks like this; sometimes even the whole list will not serve for any one task but a good list will improve the chance of solving some problems, whether it's finding a scanned score, or improving a worklist, track-listing a piece, improving a composition/publishing date- all that dorky stuff we're proud (I'm proud) to like to do... )

[eschiss1]

Goss mentions the Massenet concerto of ca.1892 here , so assuming she's not quoting Wikipedia, it's not -just- Wikipedia...  Less likely to be quoting Wikipedia is this, written in 1908. So whoever wrote that Wikipedia bit didn't pull it out of their hat. As does happen, of course (well, probably is referenced- I should check, to be fair ) Still no idea if it survives but will keep looking for a bit (here for a little more today then out for a few hours . I wonder who has most of Massenet's manuscripts- maybe BNF? ... )

Apparently so - BNF lists 26,412 manuscripts of Massenet (counting music, letters, etc.) in their catalog (probably not scanned yet if they even plan to do so with any of them, but still, that's a good number.

[Alan Howe]

There seems to be a number of references to a Massenet VC on the net, but all with the same wording, possibly from the same source...
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=929lNk1fqXoC&pg=PA306&lpg=PA306&dq=n+1892+Jules+Massenet+composed+a+violin+concerto+for+Marteau&source=bl&ots=EY53Q_WHV3&sig=veXRDT4SBsAwzpBLmfsYpXMKDKQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ovACUNG0IaPN0QXA0LSDBw&ved=0CFYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=n%201892%20Jules%20Massenet%20composed%20a%20violin%20concerto%20for%20Marteau&f=false
...However, Grove doesn't list it, so either the information is wrong or the work is lost (although Grove's listing includes lost works).
Hmmmmm!