Ferdinand Thieriot

[eschiss1]

Just the first movement, I think? But yes.

[Ilja]

Hi all,

Today I discovered that recently a number of new digital realizations of works by Ferdinand Thieriot were placed on the Youtube channel of Albis Music (which/who until recently went by the name "Harmo Nium"). I've only gone through the 5th symphony sofar. There is a double concerto for violin, viola and orchestra as well, plus the second movement of Thieriot's First Piano Concerto. All thoroughly delicious stuff.

[Alan Howe]

Symphony No.5 is (unsurprisingly) conservative-sounding for 1908, but stronger, I think, than the D major Symphony we have already heard. This is made of much sterner stuff. It'd make a grand impression, I'm sure - and it doesn't really sound like anyone else! Not bad for a 70 year-old composer!

[Ilja]

I would certainly typify it as more "muscular" than No. 7 (the D major, to avoid understandable confusion). However, I was rather smitten by the latter's more light-hearted nature, to be honest. If there's one critical note I might be allowed to make regarding No. 5, it's that it has something of an anti-finale problem - the finale is very strong in my view, and from those brooding opening chords to the apotheosis it knows how to maintain great tension. But it'll take a few more listens to get to grip with the piece.

A bit of information I was unaware of until I read Gero Ehlert's biographical essay (downloadable from a link in the YouTube description) was that Thieriot's Nachlass was absconded to the Soviet Union in 1946 by the Red Army, only to return in 1991. That at least partly explains the degree of neglect his music has endured.

Edit (because we probably don't say this often enough): Great work by Walter Zielke in making this music accessible. Having recently dipped my toe in the craft of digitizing scores by hand, my already-high respect for people who do this on a regular basis has multiplied.

[Alan Howe]

The D major Symphony apparently comes from 'well before 1900', which I think one can hear quite clearly in comparison with No.5 in C#minor. This is part of the commentary at YouTube regarding the D major work:

The impressively fresh and classically arranged five-movement symphony in D major is one of the two Thieriot´schen symphonies without numbering. In addition to his Sinfonietta in E major, op. 55, which was published in print, the composer wrote nine other previously unpublished symphonies. For this Symphony in D major, a complete set of parts exists in the estate. On closer examination of the same, it turned out beyond doubt that all these voices had never been used before. The voice material does not contain any traces of practical use such as strokes, fingerings or other entries. Some voices even stuck together slightly from the fresh ink. The 4th and 5th parts of the string section have been copied by another hand. These copies are written on music paper of the Leipzig music publisher Alfred Dörffel, which could indicate a production in Leipzig (1880-1902?). All other voices carry Thieriot´s clean handwriting along with his sweeping signature Ferd. Thieriot. From this it can be concluded that there has never been a performance of this work with orchestra. The editor has also edited other manuscripts by Thieriot. Based on this, the dating of this symphony can definitely be classified well before 1900. (emphasis added).

[Alan Howe]

Given that Thieriot apparently wrote 9 symphonies and that only two (including the D major discussed above) are unnumbered, is there an authoritative listing available anywhere?

[Wheesht]

Apart from the entry on German Wikipedia I know of no such listing. As Thieriot's estate is held by the University Library in Hamburg, perhaps they have (access to) a listing.

According to an article on the website of Swiss radio from September 2017 there are (were?) plans for the Symphony Orchestra Biel Solothurn under conductor Kaspar Zehnder to record a series of CDs with the music of Radecke (released in 2016 and discussed here on UC), Thieriot, Rheinberger and Volkmann.

[Alan Howe]

I emailed Walter Zielke and received a reply with this listing which is almost identical with that posted earlier by Mark T:

Thieriot wrote 9 symphonies:

Symphony No.1 in F minor (Graz, 1872)
Symphony No.2 in F major (without opus, undated)
Symphony No.3 in C major (fp Hamburg, 1902)
Symphony No.4 in E flat major(fp Leipzig, 1907)
Symphony No.5 in C sharp minor (fp Hamburg, 1908, pub. AlbisMusic 2014)
Symphony No.6 in E major (without opus, undated, only piano reduction exists)
Symphony (No.7 or 8?) in B flat major (without opus, undated)
Symphony (No.7 or 8?) in D major (pub. AlbisMusic 2015) (info added by A.Howe)
Symphony No.9 in G minor (without opus, 1918).

Mr Zielke says that the original scores are probably still in various Russian archives.

[Gareth Vaughan]

As Thieriot's estate is held by the University Library in Hamburg, perhaps they have (access to) a listing.

We have been over this ground before (was it on the old forum, Mark? - I can't remember). I did some quite extensive research on Thieriot at one time. Anyway, here is the link to the HANS Katalog at Hamburg University: https://spezialkataloge.sub.uni-hamburg.de/en/hans-handschriftenkatalog.html Put "Thieriot, Ferdinand" into the box and hit "Suche starten".

Incidentally, I should add that I have never come across a composition by Thieriot that is not elegant, tuneful and immensely civilised. He does not scale great heights nor plumb vast depths - his music is accomplished, amiable and well worth listening to - IMHO.

[Gareth Vaughan]

OK. These are the symphonies by Thieriot listed in the Hamburg catalogue:

Symphony in F major (4 movts) – Partitur (133pp)
Symphony in F major (4 movts) – Parts (33)
Symphony in F major (4 movts) – 4 hand piano arrangement (102pp)

(4th) Symphony in E flat major (4 movts) – Parts (32)

(9th) Symphony in G minor (4 movts) – Partitur (132pp)
(9th) Symphony in G minor (4 movts) – Parts (23)
(9th) Symphony in G minor (4 movts) – 4 hand piano arrangement (58pp)

Symphony in D major; Version 1 (4 movts) – Partitur (148pp)
Symphony in D major; Version 1 (4 movts) – solo piano arrangement
Symphony in D major – Sketches

Symphony in D major; Version 2 (5 movts) – Partitur (120pp)
Symphony in D major; Version 2 (5 movts) – Parts (36)

Symphony in F minor (3 movts) – Partitur (121pp)
Symphony in F minor (3 movts) – solo piano arrangement (23pp) [3rd movt incomplete]

(5th) Symphony in C sharp minor (4 movts) – Partitur (146pp)
(5th) Symphony in C sharp minor (4 movts) – 4 hand piano arrangement (92pp)

Symphony in C major (4 movts) – Partitur (102pp)

Symphony in B flat major (4 movts) – Partitur (112pp)

(6th) Symphony in E major (4 movts) – 4 hand piano arrangement (60pp)

[Please note the catalogue lists the 6th symphony as being in E major NOT E flat major.]

There is also this:-

Symphonietta in E major, Op. 55 (in 3 movts) – Partitur (70pp)

[Alan Howe]

Please note the catalogue lists the 6th symphony as being in E major NOT E flat major

Thanks for the correction, Gareth. It was an error on my part as I was going back and forth from the German info to my English translation. I have duly amended the list.

He does not scale great heights nor plumb vast depths

I think Symphony No.5 gets closer to achieving this than one might otherwise imagine.

[Alan Howe]

In fact Symphony No.5 rather disproves the notion that Thieriot couldn't/didn't write meatier stuff than the chamber works we already know. Just try the stormy passage from 6:00 in the first movement - this is material to rival the equivalent passages from Brahms 1! The finale is also an incredibly powerful creation, with an inexorable drive that is often truly gripping. And all this within a 36-minute time-span. I take this to be a major contribution to the classical-romantic symphonic repertoire. Download it and play it as loud as you dare!

[Gareth Vaughan]

Having just listened to it all the way through, I fully agree, Alan. It's a very strong work. Oh to have it recorded by a decent orchestra. I wonder if CPO might be persuaded - Thieriot ought to be right up their street.

[Alan Howe]

I'm so glad you feel the same way, Gareth. Cpo (or Toccata) ought to be interested.

[Alan Howe]

It's often worthwhile to re-assess music that made an impression some while ago but which one hasn't listened to since. And so I've returned to Thieriot's 5th - and I have absolutely no doubt that this is one of the most potent unrecorded symphonies that we know of. Dare we hope for a label to take it up sometime soon?