Ferdinand Thieriot

[Alan Howe]

This is a thesis, isn't it? Might be tricky. I suggest contacting the library...

I've sent them an email - thanks, Gareth.

[Ilja]

Gareth, the library catalog seems to contain only Symphony No. 5; can you tell me where you found references to the other ones?

[Alan Howe]

Try this link:
https://kalliope-verbund.info/findingaid?fa.id=DE-611-BF-88930&htmlFull=false&lang=de&fa.enum=1&q.page=7&lastparam=true

It took me quite some time to find them!

[Alan Howe]

On the subject of the premiere of Thieriot's 5th Symphony in C sharp minor in Hamburg under conductor Julius Sprengel on 18th May 1908, the music critic of the Hamburger Anzeiger, Wilhelm Zinne, wrote:

[His 5th Symphony] is one of the most remarkable and captivating mood-pictures which we have had in recent times. With this C sharp minor Symphony Thieriot has now finally left behind his long cultivated modesty and from now on may be named in the same breath as Brahms and Bruckner.

I agree. I haven't heard anything composed by a composer of Thieriot's generation in the wake of Brahms and Bruckner that matches the sheer majesty of this symphony.

[Alan Howe]

Note: one work that would fit in the category of symphonies written in the broad Austro-German tradition post Brahms and Bruckner by composers of their generation would be the Symphony No.1 in C major Op.140 (1907) by Reinhold Becker (1842-1924), the terrific opening movement of which our friend Reverie posted on YouTube a while back:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPsxN12I994

[eschiss1]

Napravnik was a near-contemporary too . Maybe the later symphonies of Major and Mihalovich, too.

[Alan Howe]

Yes, true. But not in the Austro-German tradition. That's why the Hamburg critic cited Thieriot in the post Brahms/Bruckner period.

Of course, it'd be good to get to know those composers, but that would be in the context of the wider European symphonic tradition. What I'm interested in is what composers of the Brahms/Bruckner generation in the Austro-German tradition were writing post 1896/7 in the last 10-20 years of their lives - and whether we've missed something.

Note: Napravnik was active in Russia for most his life; Mihalovich studied in Leipzig and Munich but returned to Budapest/Hungary; Major (b.1858) is rather later and also worked in Budapest.

[eschiss1]

are we referring, since we know little about these composers' actual symphonies for the most part, to their nationality, to their preference or lack thereof for non-programmatic symphonism , or ?

[eschiss1]

Possibly better example: H Grädener's symphony no.2 (1914, age 70).

[Alan Howe]

Yes: Hermann Grädener (or Graedener, 1844-1929) would be a good example. Well sleuthed, Eric! We have had his two Violin Concertos from Toccata Classics which sound rather Brahmsian, so his Symphony No.2 in C minor would be worth pursuing. IMSLP has this entry:

Symphony No.2 in C minor (published by Universal Edition in 1912. Performed by the Vienna Philharmonic 15 February 1903. See e.g. WorldCat. Only seems to be available(?) presently at the Free Library of Philadelphia, Fleisher Collection, also at ÖNB Wien.)
https://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_works_by_Hermann_Gr%C3%A4dener

I'm thinking specifically of composers of Thieriot's generation in Austria/Germany who were engaged in writing symphonies as classically conceived (generally in 4 movements, without programme). In other words, my suspicion is that Thieriot may be the best of these - indeed, he seems to have managed to forge a symphonic identity all of his own after the deaths of Brahms and Bruckner, as we can hear in his Symphony No.5 in C sharp minor.

[Ilja]

Of a slightly different character, but definitely post-Brahmsian: Felix Woyrsch (1860-1944) wrote his last three symphonies after the age of 69.

[eschiss1]

Waitwaitwaitwaitholdit. If composers born as late as 1860 are allowed into the mix... I deliberately didn't even look at some composers as possibilities for the sin of being born in the 1850s.
Also, Gernsheim's symphonies are not all entirely non-programmatic, so out he drops, tsk. (That may explain why Klughardt didn't come up either.)
I think Woyrsch's later symphonies may incorporate elements of both the Brahms and other traditions? (or is making your 6th symphony a Sinfonia sacra just a more liturgical extension of Beethoven 9?)

[Alan Howe]

Woyrsch is an interesting composer, but too late for comparison purposes here. He's really a contemporary of Mahler and Strauss. As I said, I'm after the generation of composers born around, say, 1825 to 1845, who outlived Bruckner (1824-1896) and Brahms (1833-1897) and who found new ways of renewing the classic symphonic tradition after the deaths of those two great composers. I think that's what Thieriot did in his 5th symphony without resorting to mere imitation.

Note: Klughardt's last two symphonies date from 1897.

[eschiss1]

1845 leaves poor Mr Fuchs (sym.3 also composed at age 59 in 1906) right out

[eschiss1]

Draeseke 4, at least, is absolutely in the tradition ... (and the slow movement, I'd argue, no more puts it out of court than Beethoven writing a characteristic (not program) symphony like his 6th- though on the whole the Comica makes me think more of a more somewhat updated Beethoven 8.)