Felix Draeseke

[Alan Howe]

I would like to know why the Nazis promoted him

His first biographer, Erich Roeder, was a Nazi:
https://draeseke.org/idg/index.htm

Draeseke was certainly an admirer of Wagner's music, but ended up despairing of the innovations of Strauss. As far as I know he was simply co-opted by the Nazis as an example of 'pure German art'. Poor old Draeseke!

BTW the term "Austro-German" is unnecessary

I was merely trying to describe the cross-fertilisation of musical ideas and influences across the whole area that encompasses the German-speaking states and territories of the 19th century. For example, both Beethoven (born in Bonn) and Brahms (born in Hamburg) lived and worked in Vienna.

I think it is because most people found the contents after the nut was cracked not to be too tasty...

And yet you yourself admit to not knowing the vast bulk of Draeseke's output:

I am not familiar with his symphonic, orchestral and larger works

It seems to me quite extraordinary to cite (and therefore advance) the notion that somehow the contents of the nut aren't too tasty when by your own admission you've never listened to his music beyond a few of his chamber compositions! I mean, how on earth do you know whether this is true?

Here, finally, are two further reviews, this time of the cpo CD featuring Draeseke's 1st and 4th Symphonies:
https://draeseke.org/discs/revS4_fanfare.htm
https://www.draeseke.org/discs/revS4_macdon.htm

[Alan Howe]

Of course, I may well be completely wrong about the stature of Draeseke. But at least I've listened to a lot of his music, having sought the views of the foremost musicologist who ever studied him, namely the late Dr Alan Krueck. His doctoral dissertation is essential reading for anyone interested in the composer, specifically his symphonies; it can be accessed here:
https://www.draeseke.org/essays/index.htm  (first item)

And please listen to Draeseke's 3rd Symphony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP2oZOyaOmU&t=751s

[Santo Neuenwelt]

How about a new thread "Who do you think is the most deserving of the title second greatest unsung German composer after Raff" Be interesting to see how often Draeseke is suggested.

As for Austro-German, it would certainly be proper to call Beethoven and Brahms Austro-German composers as virtually their entire creative lives were spent in Vienna where they imbibed the cultural air of that city.

And Eric, yes a few works, mostly the same ones, of Schoenberg get an occasional outing, but very often, I think that is a stretch unless you are also including radio broadcasts where no audience is gong to be there. For more than 40 years, I have had the privilege of being able to regularly attend chamber and orchestral concerts in Vienna, Salzburg, Munich, Copenhagen, London, Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo and D.C. Have I heard any Schoenberg? Yes, I have. Have I found his works frequently programmed. No, I have not. And also, what I have noticed when a work of his is programmed for a live performance, and this is especially true in ultra conservative Vienna, Salzburg and Munich (but not so much in the States), the concert halls are half empty. But even in the States, I cannot say that I have found Schoenberg's works programmed very frequently. Perhaps you and I just go to different concert venues or music festivals.

[Santo Neuenwelt]

Alan,
My point, though perhaps my post did not make that very clear, was not that Draeseke's music was all bad or that there was no first rate music to be found, though that seems to be the case as far as his chamber music goes---and I readily admit, I know nothing of the rest---my point was and is that I do not think Draeseke, at least based on the music with which I am very familiar, i.e., his chamber music, qualifies for the title of second greatest German unsung after Raff.

And while I certainly respect Dr Krueck, who was an important musicologist and probably the foremost expert from a musicological standpoint on Draeseke's music, who is music meant for, pace Churchill, for whom is music meant. In my opinion, music was and is meant for the listener and the player, not for how it looks on paper. How it looks on paper is one thing. It may be very clever, but how does it play, how does it sound. That is what counts. Perhaps aficionados of painting can ooh and ah over a painter's brush stroke technique, but is that what painting is all about.

I shall now set about to listen to his symphonies to learn if that is why Draeseke should be considered the second greatest. After all, there are symphonists who could not write chamber music and vice versa. For example Onslow, whose chamber music is almost uniformly first rate, but whose symphonies fall far below that standard...

[eschiss1]

"How often do they get played or programmed". If you wish to move the goalposts (a common English expression, sports-derived, by the way), Mr. Neuenwelt, you are free to, just as I am free to ignore your doing so. The question was implicitly, do they get performed or programmed more often than Raff, Draeseke, Herzogenberg- yes. How many performances of Schoenberg between now and May 2021? At least 27 or so. How many if one omits Verklärte Nacht and arrangements of others' works, say? Still at least 16. (The particular website I get this information from notes a performance of one work by Herzogenberg in this period and none by Raff or Draeseke, but is of course incomplete - which applies to Schoenberg too. Only 6 programs/7 performances noted on this particular site of Varèse works - two of them basically the same concert on succeeding days except for some Strauss added on February 18 2021 (@ Barbican Hall) - about as many as of Reger.)

(Edit: we probably do go to different festivals, as I have not gone to a concert of any kind in some time, and rarely did. My information is statistical in nature, as was the question I was answering. I get grumpy when people try to change the question on me after I answer it, and I make no apologies for that, nor will I ever.)

[Santo Neuenwelt]

Well Eric,
I do not think I moved the goal posts as you put it, though it is a nice turn of phrase, I admit. I rather think you missed my point in my post to Alan. I certainly was not suggesting that Schoenberg gets programmed less than Raff or Herzogenberg. I was pointing out that while there are people who like Schoenberg, he does not get programmed all that often today vis a vis those composers which which we get to hear on a regular basis. After all, Schoenberg is not an unsung, he is quite well-known. Nor did I wish to suggest that he and his Second Vienna School buddies Webern and Berg etc get performed live less frequently than Herzogenberg or Raff. To the contrary, that was not my point. My point was that Draeseke during his lifetime and probably thereafter got performed a lot less than most of his equally unknown or unsung contemporaries...

[eschiss1]

As to how often Draeseke got performed during his lifetime, as someone who's spent a lot of dorky free time skimming issues of the NZM and similar older journals (in reprint at the library and online at archive.org and Google Books), I'm fairly sure I recall running into his name in the upcoming concerts listings during his heyday -very- often indeed. And again - "(Edit: I get grumpy when people try to change the question on me after I answer it, and I make no apologies for that, nor will I ever.)"...

[Alan Howe]

My point was and is that I do not think Draeseke, at least based on the music with which I am very familiar, i.e., his chamber music, qualifies for the title of second greatest German unsung after Raff.

I urgently suggest, therefore, that you explore Draeseke's music properly and fully - and refrain from expressing any further views on the matter until you have done so.

[Alan Howe]

In my opinion, music was and is meant for the listener and the player, not for how it looks on paper. How it looks on paper is one thing. It may be very clever, but how does it play, how does it sound.

Well, evidently you don't actually know how the vast bulk of Draeseke's music sounds! Some of us here do!

So now let's proceed on the basis that all debates here are conducted among those who have actually listened extensively to Draeseke's music. After all, this isn't a thread merely about his chamber music, but about his output in all genres.

[Reverie]

Gosh it looks like I uncovered a hornets nest which has remained dormant since October 2011 

[Alan Howe]

Well, I sincerely hope that the hornets have now returned to their nest and won't be disturbed in a similar fashion anytime soon.

Ignorance is definitely not bliss here...

[tpaloj]

Die Hermannsschlacht - Prelude to Act1 (1860)

Only short, about 5 minutes long. The prelude to Act I of the play by Heinrich von Kleist.

Thank you for your efforts Reverie! It must have been a lot of work given how thick Draeseke's scoring is. When I finish transcribing his overture to "Fischer und Kalif" I'll post it here as well. Based on what I've seen, his manuscripts seem to have very few actual errors in them, if one can get past the look of the handwriting itself. I can respect a composer who obviously takes pride in his work by taking the time to proofread his scores carefully.

[Reverie]

Thanks. A small voyage of discovery as usual. I'm assuming the score is in his hand (or is it a copy?)

You are quite right though - when you get used to the little quirks it all makes sense. At first I had a job deciphering which were crotchet notes and which were crotchet rests. Also he makes great use of shorthand (eg: as for flute down an octave etc..). It suggests he works at great speed. His handwriting for tempo/expression takes some working out too especially for someone who doesn't have a great grasp of German.

Ignoring the debate above, all in all, for an early work, it shows an assured control of a large orchestra. Using a limited number of themes he creates some wonderful colours and textures.

Looking forward to Fischer und Kalif.

[Alan Howe]

May I add my thanks too? Much appreciated!

[Alan Howe]

I don't think Draeseke had any 'profile' in the US at all. If his name was known, it was on this side of the Atlantic. However, your point is well made in that Raff was an incredibly popular and widely performed composer during the period in question - only for his reputation to suffer a catastrophic decline thereafter.

Draeseke, with one or two exceptions among his compositions, will probably always fly under the radar. He is often a tough nut to crack, but so worth the effort...