Subtle movements in orchestral works, causing emotions

[Peter1953]

Dear friends,

A very important part of a real romantic symphony, a concerto (but of course also in chamber music, a piano sonata), is usually the slow movement, in which the composer presents a subtle piece of music which can easily touch the listener.

There are slow movements in symphonies and concertos (but sometimes also in opening movements like Moscheles PC3) which are so utterly subtle, and are full of depth, strong in themes, structure and development, which, as a result, can easily cause emotions.

The absolute winner in all of this is (IMHO), sorry for being so predictable, the andante in the 2nd PC of Brahms. Unrivalled. Another striking example is the adagio espresssivo in Schumann's 2nd symphony.
But our unsung composers wrote some gorgeous examples as well. Take Raff in his 1st symphony (3rd movement, the larghetto) and 2nd VC (the adagio), or Scharwenka in the 3rd movement of his 4th PC. There are many more examples.

My question to you all is, what is for you a real emotional movement in a symphony or a concerto by our unsung composers?

Peter

[Syrelius]

Just a few examples that quickly come to mind:

- Berwald: Sinfonie Serieuse and Sinfonie Singulière, 2nd movements
- Stenhammar: Symphony no 2, 2nd movement, 1st piano concerto, 3rd movement
- Taneyev: Symphony no 2, 2nd movement (though I'm not sure "subtle" is the right word in the case of his 2nd symphony, especially not with Fedoseyev conducting...
- Kallinnikov: symphony no 1, 2nd movement
- Lyapunov: Symphony no 1, 2nd movement
- Martucci: Symphony no 2, 2nd movement
- Magnard: Symphony no 4, 3rd movement

[Lew]

Kalliwoda - Symphony No. 4, movements 1 and 2
Raff - Symphony No. 3, slow movement
Friedrich Schneider - Symphony No. 17, 1st movement

- amongst others, for me, have an indefinable subtlety of thought; perhaps not of the very highest level, but touchingly persuasive all the same.

Lew Lewis

[Alan Howe]

Draeseke Sym 1/3rd movement
d'Albert Sym/1st and 2nd movements
Raff Sym 3/2nd movement
Noskowski Sym 1/2nd movement
Rufinatscha Sym 6 1st movement, about 14 minutes in
Dietrich VC/2nd movement
Rheinberger Florentiner Sym/2nd movement
Almost anything by Gernsheim
Berger W. Sym 2/2nd movement

...and many others!

[Peter1953]

Thanks for your good suggestions, Syrelius, Lew and Alan.

What do you think of Bortkiewicz's Symphony 2, 3rd movement?

But the list is incomplete without mentioning my absolute unsung hero, Anton Rubinstein. One of the greatest pianists ever. So how about the superb andante in his VC op. 46?

[mbhaub]

For me, the 2nd movement of Bloch's Symphony in C# minor is an emotional tear-jerker. Gets me everytime. Of course, the all-time biggest emotional moments come from the Elgar 2nd -- near the end of the second movement, and the coda of the last. Puts a lump in the throat if the conductor knows what he's doing.

[JimL]

I have a soft spot for the slow movement of Rheinberger's Piano Concerto.  But, you know, the slow movement of the Urspruch PC is starting to grow on me too.  And (relatively) unsung Dvorak, especially the early symphonies is chock full of them. 

[Ilja]

A few others:
- Rheinberger's Overture to Die sieben Raben, Op.20: the clarinet solo about 3 minutes in.
- Verhulst, Symphony in E minor, 4th mvmt, trumpet/clarinet duet one minute before the end)
- Hans Huber's Third Piano Concerto, First Mvt.
- Bortkiewicz First Piano Concerto, First Mvt.

Then, of course there are context-related emotional moments, such as the finale to the 1990 Prague Festival Ma Vlast (conducted by Rafael Kubelik upon his return to Prague after an absence of 30 years), or Mengelberg's Dopper 7th (a piece full of Dutch patriotic songs from the Spanish uprising), performed six months after the Germans invaded the Netherlands in November 1940. In both cases, the reaction of the audience is revealing.

[John H White]

  The trio of the minuet in Franz Lachner's massive 5th Symphony reminds me of a rather melancholic drawing room song so favoured by the Victorians and myself.

[Martin Eastick]

As well as heartily concurring with many of the afore-mentioned examples, perhaps I can add the following suggestions for general recommendation (from a much longer list of course!)

Moszkowski - Violin Concerto - 2nd mvmt
Paderewski - Piano Concerto - ditto (Earl Wild performance preferably!)
Atterberg - Symphony No2 - ditto
Parry - Symphony No5 - 2nd & 4th mvmts.
Czerny (yes - believe it or not!) Concerto for piano duet Op153 - development section in particular (1st mvmt) - see slso his Sonata Op10 for piano duet - 2nd subject (1st mvmt) plus its later reappearance in the minor key!

[Steve B]

Wow, Martin; your first two choices would probably be my first two(amongst lesser known composers anyway)

The Paderewski has that beautiful opening oboe solo, followed by that sad, plantive piano solo melody, with wide repeated leaps; then there is the climax in the middle, which melds two themes together so effectively and movingly.

And in the Moszkowski slow movement, that main melody! one of the most haunting,along with the above Paderewski, in all music; someone on this forum once said that Moszkowski (words to the effect of, not a direct quotation:)!) deliberately manufactured emotion in his music, but I find his emotion very genuine and this movement and the ends of the first and last movements of the Piano Concerto, move me to tears(and doesnt all music delibertately and consciously play on the emotions, and all "sentimental" means is "full of feeling"); there is a very deep and disconcerting moment too, when everything stops in the centre(roughly) of the movement: there is a muffled drumbeat and I am instantly reminded, in sound and depth, of Elgar's Cello Concerto: this is very GENUINE, heartfelt and deep music.

Do you know, on a slightly lighter note, Moszkowski's solo piano piece "Hommage to Schumann"?, whcih out-Schumanns even Schumann, with its opening parody of the Davidsbundler March from "Carnaval" and ends in roulades of Schumannesque melisma,a la the end of the finale of the Piano Concerto. Amusing, affectionate parody, but also, again, genuinely moving.

The orchestral suites are brilliantly orchestrated(he taught Beecham orchestration); the piano music is either scintillating or sometimes(pre! Faure-esque, in the same way as Godard is sometimes, in its quiet meditativeness, and strange, slightly impressionistic harmonies).

A good topic, Peter; because i think we sometimes lose sight of, or feel unable to talk openly, of the EMOTIONAL impact our loved unknowns have on us, else we wouldnt have the enthusiasm for them and the advocacy in the first place!

One other example, the moving melody in the finale of Parry's Fourth Symphony(but will have to listen to the fifth now!

Steve

[Martin Eastick]

Steve - I am glad you agree with my Paderewski & Moszkowski suggestions. As to Moszkowski's Op5 - I presume you know this via Seta Tanyel's recording (the only one to date, I still believe) - I was fortunate enough to have input here for the 4 Moszkowski CD's - originally for Collins - and it was hoped to continue both this and the Scharwenka piano cycle, although both stopped when Collins disappeared. I am still hoping that Hyperion may return to both these in the future.

It would also be very good to have the Moszkowski orchestral suites recorded (I have full scores of Op39, Op47 & Op79) - perhaps also the Prelude and Fugue for String Orchestra which I taped (rather primitively!) from the radio about 25 years ago!

Finally does ANYONE ANYWHERE have any knowledge as to the whereabouts of Moszkowski's earlier orchestral works - especially the 1875 Piano Concerto? I am sure this subject must have been touched on before, but one cannot but hope that somewhere somehow lurking in a dark dusty corner is this and perhaps a couple of symphonies etc....... just waiting to be rediscovered! I am sure that these earlier works would not disappoint!

[JimL]

The shame of it is that the answer appears to be no.  The early piano concerto (which would make the E Major his 2nd) and the two symphonies appear at present to be lost.  It's hard to put on an intensive search for stuff like that.  I'm still wondering if anybody knows where Goldmark's 2nd Violin Concerto is...

[FBerwald]

What about the 2nd movement of Kalinnikovs Symphony no 2 (it works on themes from the Ist mmt.)
Also his Nocturne for piano.
Theres also Eduard Nápravník's melancholy ??

[chill319]

I'll second Draeseke Symphony1/3 (as performed under George Hanson). The Dirge from MacDowell's Indian Suite moves me in almost anyone's performance. I'm so glad to see so many clear-headed people listening to and liking Paderewski. He was a remarkable composer, and I'm always swept away when bashing though his piano music, particularly the sonata. Looking forward to hearing some of the other composers' works mentioned.