Audience behaviour

[Dundonnell]

OK, Mark, comments from the Heartland.   We've been season subscribers to the Minnesota Orchestra for over 50 years.  There have been numerous changes, none of them much welcomed by me.  And probably other old timers.   Dress - in the 50's everyone was dressed to the nines including quite formal evening wear.  Suits, ties, and few dressed more casually than perhaps a turtle neck and sweater.  Today jeans seem to be the dress of the day, at least for younger audience members.  But then that's true even of many fine restaurants.  Young men love to wear their baseball caps indoors.  I digress......

Yes, in the past couple of years, more or less, I have not attended a performance that didn't, at some point, receive a standing ovation.  And much whistling, cheering and bravos.  (and the same is true of such as high school band concerts, etc.....).  With the Minnesota, perhaps it happens because in recent years under music directors such as Maestro Vanska our orchestra has matured so much that it's still hard to believe at times that they ARE that good. 

And the race for the exits.  It appears that many folks hate sitting and waiting to get out of a parking ramp (auto park) for 15 or 20 minutes so, yes, about a quarter of them make a dash for the doors to beat the crowd.  Especially in the deepest part of Minnesota winter.

And of course, everyone has to be reminded to turn off their cell phones and pagers.....

Things ain't what they used to be.......

Jerry

Jerry, a friend of mine told me the other day that Osmo Vanska programmed the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra in Minneapolis not so long ago and during the concert interval he could hear from his dressing-room (which is above or near to the carpark) a large number of car engines starting up as concert goers fled rather than have to sit through the Bartok

On a related issue...I cannot honestly say that it worries me too much what members of the audience wear. I would rather see young people at a concert than not and if they are more comfortable in casual clothes then so be it. The same friend of mine ( who at that time ran a BBC Radio orchestra) was having a drink with me during the interval of a concert. He looked around and commented on the fact that almost all of the audience were at least over 50 years old and lamented that in years to come who would actually attend live concerts. When he caught sight of a small group of teenagers present he just about ran over to embrace them

What really annoys me-certainly as I listen again now to the sober, restrained and informative BBC radio announcers' introductions to my old tape recordings, is the gushing nonsense spouted by so many BBC TV presenters before and particularly after a Proms concert, when they invariably inform the viewers that they have just seen and heard the most superb performance of a work. That is, of course, not always the case and, in any event, is a judgment which should be left to the viewers to decide for themselves.

[albion]

I cannot honestly say that it worries me too much what members of the audience wear. I would rather see young people at a concert than not and if they are more comfortable in casual clothes then so be it [...] What really annoys me-certainly as I listen again now to the sober, restrained and informative BBC radio announcers' introductions to my old tape recordings, is the gushing nonsense spouted by so many BBC TV presenters before and particularly after a Proms concert, when they invariably inform the viewers that they have just seen and heard the most superb performance of a work. That is, of course, not always the case and, in any event, is a judgment which should be left to the viewers to decide for themselves.

Audiences should feel sartorially and socially comfortable when listening to any form of music - somehow, I don't think that any composer who honestly wanted their work to be heard would give two hoots if his audience dressed in dickie-bows, tank-tops or spandex boob-tubes just as long as they were relaxed and receptive to the music.



The informative and often erudite announcements on the wonderful broadcasts from the 1970s and 1980s come to us as messages from another, dying world: the calibre of radio and television presentation and commentary today particularly at the Proms, but more generally on regular programmes such as Afternoon on 3, has taken such a sheer nose-dive that it would be better in general if the current 'breed' of presenter said nothing, contented themselves with pressing the relevant button and returned to their skim-read of The Ladybird History of Music.



Admittedly tangential, but I posted on another forum - nothing is going to bring back Radio 3 as many members here clearly remember it as it existed in the 1970s and 1980s, when studio recordings of works such as Bantock's complete Omar Khayyam and Havergal Brian's The Tigers were undertaken, when announcers introduced a symphonic work by highlighting points of interest in terms of harmony or structure and when informed presenters were accorded respect by listeners for the very reason that they clearly were informed. The ethos in this period was not paternalistic, but assumed a common corpus of knowledge amongst listeners and sought to use this as a starting point for further exploration.

The slide toward mediocrity can be blamed on many causes - but the greatest is perhaps the general paucity of knowledge about 'classical' music in our culture generally. When you listened to Radio 3 about 30 years ago you sensed that it was aimed at an audience which had at least a nodding acquaintance with standard repertoire and so wouldn't necessarily be reaching for the off-button when you programmed the latest symphony by Graham Whettam, Daniel Jones or Arnold Cooke. It seems that the BBC now perceives a need to introduce listeners to such works as Beethoven's 5th or Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, and often in 'manageable' chunks lest the goldfish should mistakenly go twice round the bowl.

[Dundonnell]

Well said, that man

[jerfilm]

I'm not surprised that there was a general exodus at intermission before the Bartok.  I am surprised that he programmed it LAST on the schedule.   Normally they make everyone sit through that sort of thing so they can hear the Beethoven 6th after intermission.

I guess the only slightly encouraging thing about such behavior - a lot of folks are familiar with Bartok........

Jerry

[Dundonnell]

My friend told me that Vanska was upset

[eschiss1]

... I admit to some surprise this happened with the concerto for orchestra. I know that the string quartets encounter some audience resistance the last few times I've heard them in concert (in New York and New Jersey)... (and maybe still the 1st piano concerto, say, but I can't speak to that.)
but then, so has Alkan when Hamelin brought him here, too... (or at least, some after-concert overheard grumbling - if there was flight, I didn't notice it. )

Liszt's orchestral works suffered this fate often enough and I suppose Bartók who I think did admire Liszt might have taken some solace- maybe not.

[semloh]

........b]nothing is going to bring back Radio 3 as many members here clearly remember it as it existed in the 1970s and 1980s,
...... the BBC now perceives a need to introduce listeners to such works as Beethoven's 5th or Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, and often in 'manageable' chunks lest the goldfish should mistakenly go twice round the bowl.[/b][/color]

Well said, indeed. This nicely describes the situation here in Aus. too, where manageable sound bites are all too frequent, and the works which are played in full tend to be Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaik. et al. and are broadcast during the off-peak periods.

One of my gripes is the habit here for many announcers to speak in soft, hushed tones which require the volume to be temporarily increased. Perhaps they think it indicates sensitivity and refinement (as it did with David Munrow, and certain other UK music figures back in the early 70s). The announcements on the BMB recordings are just wonderful, both in style and content, and after nearly 25 years in 'Straya, the accents sound aristocratic to my ears.  .... but as Albion says, those days seem to be gone forever. 

[Paul Barasi]

Clap-happy audiences on their feet before the final bar has ended, for this is their star turn, and it's all done regardless of quality delivered, and despite all the coughing they've done during the music. Then comes the unending re-entries of performers who obviously don't want to rush to the bar. The conductor will suddenly act as if wanting all the credit to go to the others. Finally, the feigned surprise when the programmed bouquets are presented. We are locked into this ritualistic, enforced, uncritical adulation. We have no way left of demonstrating appreciation for an outstanding performance, short of invading the stage. A good audience will first stay quiet and still at the end of a stunning performance: oh, how I wish!

[Dundonnell]

The flip side of all this-and I apologise profusely to those who have heard this story already:

At a recent concert in Dresden by the Staatskapelle under Christian Thielemann the orchestra began with Busoni's Nocturne Symphonique. At the end of the piece the audience responded with tepid applause.

Thielemann turned to the audience and announced that since this was one of the greatest pieces of music the orchestra would now play it a second time.

At the end of the second rendering the applause was, apparently, much more enthusiastic

Now....opinions differ as to whether Thielemann was in fact berating the audience for their failure to properly appreciate the music or the orchestra for not giving a good enough performance Some have criticised Thielemann for sheer bad manners

Either way however it is refreshing to think that either an audience or an orchestra can actually be brought to realise that not all is at it should be

[mikben]

Standing ovations are frequent at concerts in Holland (certainly in Amsterdam), and they can go on for quite some time. There isn't that much of a rush to get out of the hall at the end as your concert ticket is valid on the tram or bus for your trip home! Then there is the free wine offered at the interval! Of course on top of all these extras you have the Concertgebouw Orchestra or the excellent Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra playing. I rarely go home disappointed! Whether things will stay like this with the current govt cutting funding left right and centre we'll have to wait and see.

[Dundonnell]

Standing ovations are frequent at concerts in Holland (certainly in Amsterdam), and they can go on for quite some time. There isn't that much of a rush to get out of the hall at the end as your concert ticket is valid on the tram or bus for your trip home! Then there is the free wine offered at the interval! Of course on top of all these extras you have the Concertgebouw Orchestra or the excellent Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra playing. I rarely go home disappointed! Whether things will stay like this with the current govt cutting funding left right and centre we'll have to wait and see.

I am afraid that I have never been to a concert in Amsterdam but I have, twice, attended the Anton Phillipshall in The Hague. There would not be much chance of the audience there making a quick getaway at the end of the concert. Most of them appeared to be older than me.....and that's saying something

[semloh]

.............Most of them appeared to be older than me.....and that's saying something

Nice one, Colin! 

[dafrieze]

These are the discontents of democracy.  Such goings-on were unheard-of when audiences consisted of a nobleman's court.

[eschiss1]

no, then one could often not hear a concert, an opera comes to mind, at all for all the talking, rustling and whatnot between the big numbers (well, 18th century).  I don't advise thinking it was so much or any better then. (And if that nobleman's court was Weimar in the middle of the 19th century, we're reminded that the intrigues might have made it rather difficult to really catch, say, some parts of Cornelius' opera The Barber of Baghdad at its premiere for all of the orchestrated whistling - to give only one example.
As often, I'll take now and work on the future )
Though there is a parallel to one audience-shaming technique that was mentioned recently, in something that was mentioned also in Walker's flawed (of course) but still interesting Liszt biography - Bülow's instruction (admonition!!) to an audience (presumably also mentioned in his recent Bülow biography) that it is not customary to boo in this hall (words to that effect). (Which also silenced the audience - but a few days later the press was the opposite of silent.)

[jerfilm]

Not everyone puts up with audience nonsense.  Years ago, when the Met went on tour each spring and spent a full week doing up to 9 operas in Minneapolis, I recall one performance being conducted by Joseph Rosenstock who struck me as being quite a curmudgeon.  He waited and waited for the coughing and rustling to end and when all was VERY silent, struck the first few chords of the Overture.  Someone in the audience coughed very loudly and Rosenstock stopped the orchestra, turned in the direction he thought the cough came from and asked "Are you through??"   And then proceeded with the opera......

Jerry