Audience behaviour

[mbhaub]

Bravo, Rosenstock! That's another thing...sometimes people have nasty colds and coughs. Why not just stay home? Don't subject the rest of us to your diseases and noise!

Regarding dress standards: Ok, it's the 21st century. Standards for dress are more relaxed all over. The LA Philarharmonic does concerts called "Casual Friday" where not only is the audience encouraged to attend casually, but the orchestra, too. I'm sorry, but Mahler and Mozart deserve better. I get it that it's the sound that matters, but when you have violins dressed like they just got off the beach, drummers dressed like they are going to Dodger Stadium and so on, it is distracting. And disrespectful. I went to that one Casual Friday concert, and that was it -- never again. There was one member of the Philharmonic, a horn player, probably in his 50's, who stood out because he didn't dress so casually -- coat and tie. Looked sharp. At least one player refusing to surrender his standards. And the Mahler 7th was magnificent!

[Jimfin]

What is this obsession with wearing casual clothes on every occasion? I like to dress up a bit and feel that it's an occasion. When I wear casual clothes at home or in the pub, I can appreciate them all the more for not doing so all the time. A teenage acquaintance of mine recently said 'why are older people always obsessed with being casual?', which made me smile.

[giles.enders]

I think that bad audience behaviour is not just confined to the concert hall, it is also the same in theatres and to a lesser extent in cinemas.  The Americans are the worst, they view music and theatre like a circus act.  I have seen and heard some very indifferent performances and had to witness rounds of ecstatic applause.  In theatre, Americans applaud when their favourite actor appears in the middle of an act.

An announcement at the beginning of each performance to the effect of, please save your applause and comments to your neighbour until the end, might help.

Bad behaviour is not a recent phenomenon, I recall sitting at pantomimes when a child with men smoking pipes and cigars, not to mention cigarettes.  The noisy eating of sweets and popcorn is a current irritant.

About the clothes the audience ware, I dint' bother to dress up at modern venues on the grounds that they 'don't dress for me'.  The Barbican in London is like a peoples airport and The Queen Elizabeth Hall in London is offensive to the eye not to mention uncomfortable.  The Wigmore Hall in London is a different matter, I always wear a suit with tie.

[Mark Thomas]

Having just turned 60, I'm now comfortably in touch with my inner curmudgeon and it's good to see that I'm in such plentiful company! 

[Alan Howe]

To go to the Royal Opera House I dress 'smart casual' (never jeans) - often because it's so hot that wearing a tie is just too downright uncomfortable. Living out in the sticks usually means an unseemly dash for the exit at the end so as not to miss my train - so I'm hardly ever there for the curtain-calls. To go to the summer Proms at the Royal Albert Hall I'm afraid I will often not take a jacket - again it's almost always so hot inside that personal comfort has to come first. From which overseas friends will note that air conditioning does not feature in my concert-going experience, so that how I look is a matter of some indifference to me - although I try not to turn up looking reasonably smart.

Finally, to attend performances at Opera Holland Park in London where my daughter works it's pretty well irrelevant what one is wearing because one ends up putting on a coat, scarf and gloves anyway during the course of the evening...

[Dundonnell]

When I attended the Proms Gothic in July at the Albert Hall I wore a smartish jacket but, if I recall, no tie.

My nephew(well, greatnephew to be strictly accurate ) arrived to join me having spent the day paintballing or some similar warlike pursuit. He was very casually dressed; he prefers jazz and electronic rock music to classical music. I had persuaded him to attend, having lauded the Gothic to the skies. He was pretty tired after his active day and I was worried that he might nod off during the concert

At the end of the performance he not only stood to applaud but turned to me with genuine tears in his eyes and told me that it was one of the greatest experiences of his life hearing such glorious music.

That sort of reaction meant more to me than I can possibly express in words. I didn't care what he was wearing, I still don't care what he was wearing. What mattered to me-and what I shall remember to the end of my days-is that a young man who had never heard a single note of Havergal Brian's music should react with such real, unfeigned emotion. I found that intensely moving

[Jimfin]

I don't think that these days I would say that smart has to equal wearing a tie: I think there are plenty of ways of making some effort to look presentable without a tie. But t-shirts should be reserved for home, in my opinion. In Tokyo it is not considered acceptable to wear t-shirts in town, though polo shirts are okay. Not that anyone would tell you so, but one can always spot tourists by their scruffy garb...
     Still, I think what matters more is behaviour: the genuine Russian enthusiasm sounds great, but the idea the US that a standing ovation should be almost compulsory just seems to remove any value from the gesture.

[semloh]

When I attended the Proms Gothic ...............

That's a great story, Colin, thank you - heartwarming indeed!   

I am quite envious, as nobody in my family cares much for classical music. 

When it comes to dress at concerts, one might think that Australians - supposedly laid back and easy-going - would be very casual, but my experience is that they are mostly traditionalists in such matters and like to be seen to be 'correct'. As rather ratbaggish colonial subjects, the Australians consciously sought to outshine the Mother Country in its three characteristic features - bureaucracy, cricket and respect for tradition! So, we have 'graduation balls', 'school formals', debutante balls, etc, etc - all with due pomp and ceremony, and everyone in the most pretentious formal dress, even here in the tropics!  Harmless, but very odd! 

[Josh]

coat and tie. Looked sharp. At least one player refusing to surrender his standards.

There's another way to look at this.  I, for example, think that the coat and tie look utterly absurd.  It's absolutely ludicrous to me.  I can't even fathom why anybody, anywhere, could possibly think it looks good, or that it has any logical sense to it whatsoever.  The only two clothings I can thing of that look more stupid to me are the tuxedo, and high-heeled shoes.  Wasteful, inefficient, and laughable-looking.  I don't particularly care about fashion one way or another, other than thinking those three things are idiotic-looking.  And wearing a suit is miserably uncomfortable, with absolutely no logical sense behind being so uncomfortable.  It's just that almost everyone is brainwashed into thinking that it's just the thing to do.  But why?  Why can't people sit down and think about things that are "this is just how it is", and question them?  WHY is this "just how it is"?  Who thinks it's a good idea?  Why does it look good?  How can I be expected to enjoy or fully participate in any activity (or concert) when almost my whole attention is wrapped up in how miserable I am wearing such an idiotic-looking, inefficient collection of uselessly-piled cloth. I'm honestly not sure that I'd consider dressing up in a clown outfit to look any more ridiculous than the tuxedo.  And I'm not just being facetious about any of this, I'm completely serious.  I suppose I just tend to consider things from a very "clean slate" perspective, even things that are very well-established.  And when it comes to clothing, I think notions of comfort and efficiency need to be given much higher priority than they currently are.  I wonder what people 200 years from now will think of the suit&tie?  I have a suspicion it will be looked on as good for a laugh, with much shaking of heads over the wastefulness of it all.

I don't know.  Maybe this is the mindset that lets me listen to any piece of music by any composer, regardless of how "great" I'm told the composer is, and like/dislike it completely independently.

[Mark Thomas]

So what would you wear to a concert, or a wedding, or a funeral, Josh?

[Ilja]

To be honest, I don't much worry about what the members of an ensemble wear, so long as the 'ensemble' part is to some degree reflected in the wardrobe. Some muted, dark colour generally works best in my experience; but don't try to stand out at the expense of what people really come for: the music. In that sense, a single coat-and-tie orchestra member is as much of a distraction as one wearing jeans.

[semloh]

coat and tie. Looked sharp. At least one player refusing to surrender his standards.

There's another way to look at this.  I, for example, think that the coat and tie look utterly absurd.  It's absolutely ludicrous to me.  I can't even fathom why anybody, anywhere, could possibly think it looks good, or that it has any logical sense to it whatsoever. 
............. Why can't people sit down and think about things that are "this is just how it is", and question them? ...................

Well, you're right, Josh, it's not a question of logic! There's absolutely no logical argument against a man wearing a dress and lipstick, for example. However, the way a person dresses does send a message to others - a message based on dominant social understandings - and is often interpreted as a sign of their personal attitudes and qualities. In addition, "Clothes maketh man" was a common British saying, and it suggests that not only does the way we dress influence the attitudes of others toward us, but also that it can alter the way we think of ourselves and ultimately the way we behave. Having once donned a militaristic uniform myself, I can attest to that... and it is significant that every authoritarian regime around the world has attempted to regulate the way people dress.

Apologies for getting so far away from audiences!! 

[Mark Thomas]

Returning to the dress of the ensemble, I think I'm with Ilja. The players or choir members shouldn't be a distraction or stand out as individuals, so as long as they are uniformly and relatively soberly dressed then I'm happy. I sing in a choir where the men's uniform is a DJ (tuxedo). It wouldn't be my choice (it's very hot and constricting, especially in the summer) but we're an ensemble and I think it's right that there's no place for individualism there, any more than there should be within an orchestra. Soloists and conductors are different - the City of Birmingham Symphony's young star conductor Andris Nelsons never wears a DJ - always a black hip-length shirt/tunic thing and I've never heard anyone comment on it.

The idea of a "dress down" performance for the orchestra, presumably to reduce barriers to younger audiences, is an extremely shallow one, it seem to me.

What do I wear to concerts? It depends on who I'm going with and what I perceive the norm for that venue or occasion to be. Never a tie or a suit, sometimes a jacket and crisp shirt, sometimes just a shirt. Always trousers!

My original post was about audience behaviour, rather than audience dress: The US audience whose behaviour I complained about was satisfyingly mixed in age and I'd say that most older men were wearing jackets whilst the younger ones were still "smart casual". Almost every woman, young or old had dressed up.

[Lionel Harrsion]

I sing in a choir where the men's uniform is a DJ (tuxedo). It wouldn't be my choice (it's very hot and constricting, especially in the summer) but we're an ensemble and I think it's right that there's no place for individualism there, any more than there should be within an orchestra. Soloists and conductors are different ...

My old piano teacher (alas, no longer with us) used to bemoan the wearing of white tie and tails thus: "it's like trying to play the piano while wearing a suit of armour!"

[semloh]

Returning to the topic of audience behaviour, a dramatic change was brought about in the mid-late 19thC, largely by Wagner and Bayreuth, prior to which there was constant coming and going, consumption of food and drink, conversation and general hubbub throughout performances. It was Wagner, as I understand it, who established an expectation that people would remain seated, and that there would be silence for the start of a performance.

As to the dress of players, perhaps formal wear has its origins in 18thC patronage. Having musicians dressed in expensive fancy 'uniforms' was a public sign of their patron's wealth. I imagine it became a norm, and that it set a standard for all ensembles/orchestras thereafter. But that's just a guess.....