Living Symphonists

[fr8nks]

If you will listen to Lowell Leiberman's Symphony No. 2, you will see that the traditional symphony is far from dead.
At least this marvelous symphony makes me feel that way..
There is such an abundance of "music" today, things of real value get lost in all the noise..

Interesting how perspectives differ.  I consider Leiberman's Symphony No. 2 a perfect example of the poor state of modern symphonies.  Though it is extremely tonal, this is absolutely 3rd rate composing with nothing original nor distinctive to say.  What do you think makes this worth hearing?  It reminds me of bad film music.

If you didn't like watermelon and someone else did, would you criticize them for it? And what music credentials do you have to call this third rate composing? Are you also an expert on religion and politics?

[TerraEpon]

I love Liebermann's 2nd symphony, especially IIRC the second movement.

[Alan Howe]

If you will listen to Lowell Leiberman's Symphony No. 2, you will see that the traditional symphony is far from dead.
At least this marvelous symphony makes me feel that way..
There is such an abundance of "music" today, things of real value get lost in all the noise..

Interesting how perspectives differ.  I consider Leiberman's Symphony No. 2 a perfect example of the poor state of modern symphonies.  Though it is extremely tonal, this is absolutely 3rd rate composing with nothing original nor distinctive to say.  What do you think makes this worth hearing?  It reminds me of bad film music.

If you didn't like watermelon and someone else did, would you criticize them for it? And what music credentials do you have to call this third rate composing? Are you also an expert on religion and politics?

The point here, gentlemen, is that it is not enough simply to exchange personal likes and dislikes - it would be far more interesting to hear some solid reasons for those likes and dislikes...

[dafrieze]

Or perhaps we could simply agree to disagree.  If we can't express an offhand opinion about some composer/piece without displaying our credentials and/or offering a cogently reasoned defense of that opinion, this website is going to become terribly anodyne terribly quickly.

[Alan Howe]

Agreeing to disagree is fine, but it's much more interesting to hear a spirited exchange of views, with reasons. As I've said before many times, the mere expression of likes or dislikes is itself pretty boring. It is actually cogently (and respectfully) reasoned arguments that will keep this site from ever becoming anodyne.

[Alan Howe]

There's an interesting conflict of views on Liebermann 2 here:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/May01/Liebermann.htm

[Lionel Harrsion]

There's an interesting conflict of views on Liebermann 2 here:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/May01/Liebermann.htm

While it is a conflict of views all right Alan, I don't think David's Wright's contribution passes your own test of being 'cogently argued'.  Rather, it strikes me as merely gratuitously belligerent.  I am not grinding any axes here -- I don't know Liebermann's work but any dialectic that seeks to undermine its artistic validity needs to do so with considerably more subtlety than Wright displays here.

[dafrieze]

I take your point, Alan.  My point (a little too bluntly expressed, perhaps) is that if someone says, "I think the color blue is awfully overrated", I wouldn't take it as an attack on my taste in colors, nor would I respond with, "What makes you an expert in hue-ology?"

[Alan Howe]

Actually, I agree, Lionel - and I didn't say it did 'pass my test', I merely said there was a conflict of views. You are, of course, quite correct: Wright's 'review' is an example of the sort of bullying assertion of one's opinions that gets musical criticism a bad name. Poor old Andrew Litton - written off as a bad conductor in a few lines...

<<...nor would I respond with, "What makes you an expert in hue-ology?>>
Well, David, if you painted the brickwork of your house blue, I might be interested in your reasons for doing so...

[dafrieze]

What do you think makes this worth hearing?  It reminds me of bad film music.

If you didn't like watermelon and someone else did, would you criticize them for it? And what music credentials do you have to call this third rate composing? Are you also an expert on religion and politics?

Apart from the fact that I like blue, Alan . . . 

What rubbed me the wrong way was the pugnacious defensiveness (or would that be the defensive pugnacity?) of the second writer.  A disagreement is not an attack.  And sometimes we just can't really explain exactly why we like or dislike (or feel indifferent to) something. 

[Lionel Harrsion]

And sometimes we just can't really explain exactly why we like or dislike (or feel indifferent to) something.

Therein lies an essential problem, I think.  As Mendelssohn wrote, '...words seem to me so ambiguous, so vague, so easily misunderstandable in comparison with genuine music, which fills the soul with things a thousand times better than words' (or something to that effect).  If one could reduce music to words, there would be no point in it.  I was listening only this morning to Vadim Gluzman's recording of the Bruch 1st concerto and even that familiar old war-horse had the blood coursing through my veins and the hairs on the back of my neck rising -- but don't ask me to 'explain why' because I couldn't; and I'm very glad of that fact.

[Alan Howe]

I have the Gluzman CD too and it is indeed superb. Something to do with his superlative technique and singing tone, maybe? He's certainly a 'big' player. And then there's Litton's far-from-routine conducting - the opening is a case in point, as is the magnificent orchestral climax approx. six minutes in.

Of course, it's very hard to put into words exactly what is so great about a particular performance. But I don't believe it's impossible - otherwise there'd be no such thing musical journalism. And all we'd have is the comment: 'I'd like X, but I can't say why...'

Anyway, my apologies - back to living symphonists. Now, shall I order Liebermann 2...?

[fr8nks]

I have made enough posts on this site that you all should know that I try to be friendly. I do respect the opinions of others but what upset me here was the wording:

           "Though it is extremely tonal, this is absolutely 3rd rate composing with nothing original nor distinctive to say.  What do you think makes this worth hearing?  It reminds me of bad film music."

I wouldn't have a problem if it started..."In my opinion this is absolutely 3rd rate...." but the actual wording deems it a verdict and not an opinion. I'm sorry if I upset anyone.

[Lionel Harrsion]

I'm sorry if I upset anyone.

You certainly didn't upset me! (I entirely agree with you  )

[Alan Howe]

Anyway, back to living symphonists...

Now, should I order Liebermann 2? Is the music pale neo-Romanticism or a musical statement worth hearing?