Knighthoods

[Mark Thomas]

Many of us here in America are merely amused by this sort of thing.

Many of us here in the UK are amused by many things American, but we keep it to ourselves because we wouldn't want to cause offence.

[Alan Howe]

Such a triteness these titles are.

Sounds like Yoda 

[Dundonnell]

The point in compiling these lists was to attempt to respond to Tapiola's original question by providing an idea of just which composers and conductors had been honoured and to what degree and which had not.

My point was not intended as either a defence or a condemnation of such an honours system per se. Personally, I have no great difficulty with persons distinguished in public life-in this case, music-being honoured by their country.

Obviously, different people will have alternative views and there will be those who, whilst accepting an honours system, will criticise the inclusion or the omission of certain composers and conductors.

I was simply trying to illustrate, for Tapiola, the way the system has worked.

If one then poses the question-who makes the decision or choice of an individual for a specific honour? that is a moot point. Clearly, as Albion said, there are recommendations from within the 'profession' or 'lobbying' to put it more bluntly. The former Prime Minister, Sir Edward Heath, took a great personal interest because he was himself an amateur musician and great music lover. The C.H. was awarded to Herbert Howells on Heath's recommendation and Sir William Walton was given an 70th birthday dinner at 10, Downing Street during Heath's premiership. There are clearly civil servants who scrutinise lists and an Honours Committee which vets suggestions.

The fact that Malcolm Arnold was, finally, knighted demonstrated his rehabilitation after years of neglect(in all senses of that word )

[Jimfin]

Balfe was nominated for the Legion d'honeur in France, but King Louis Philippe refused him because he was foreign. However, he got it awarded later by Emperor Napoleon III. And talking of foreigners, or rather foreign-born, there was Sir Michael Costa and Sir George Henschel... Sir Andrzej Panufnik

[jerfilm]

We Americans have no right to criticize or amuse ourselves with anyone's traditions and respect for things old.  We don't have any and are not likely ever to again.  The few that we had have slowly disappreared over my lifetime.

Off music topic but an example.  We are seldom satisfied with what we have.  Here in Minnesota we've build three professional baseball stadiums in the last 50 years!   The first one was torn down completely and the monumental Mall of America now stands in it's place.  The second, the Metrodome domed statium I'm sure will disappear as soon as our professional football team convinces our legislature to build THEM a new home (projected to cost in excess of $1 Billion!)  And of course, the new baseball stadium was a bargain at $534,000,000.   

I'm sorry.  I could rant and rave on and on.  Hang on to your precious traditions and cathedrals and castles and other historic sites and ideas.   And let us come and enhoy (and envy) them.

Jerry

[Dundonnell]

Balfe was nominated for the Legion d'honeur in France, but King Louis Philippe refused him because he was foreign. However, he got it awarded later by Emperor Napoleon III. And talking of foreigners, or rather foreign-born, there was Sir Michael Costa and Sir George Henschel... Sir Andrzej Panufnik

I have added Panufnik, since he falls within my original timeframe.

[Greg K]

Many of us here in America are merely amused by this sort of thing.

Many of us here in the UK are amused by many things American, but we keep it to ourselves because we wouldn't want to cause offence.

Implicit (I think) in the original poster's inquiry was a question of whether the tradition (or "game" as he put it) of conferring knighthood might have become compromised in it's meaning when pop icons like XXX (comment removed - Mark) achieve the honor while distinguished
musicians such as Handley & Hickox go unrecognized.  Why should expressing such a suspicion (of which my own comments were an echo) cause offense, - even if we don't want to consider the issue here?

[Mark Thomas]

If I as an Englishman were to criticise the institutions of the USA, or ridicule them by saying that I find them amusing, then I'd expect to offend some US citizens. We have a strong tradition here at UC of respecting the feelings and sensibilities of others and I think that your first post was insensitive, albeit unintentionally for all I know. I'm afraid that the remark in your second post most definitely did cross the line by being potentially defamatory, which is why I have removed it.

I don't want to pursue this sterile issue, so lets please return to the main issue.

[Alan Howe]

I'm 100% with Mark on this. The bottom line on this forum is civility...

[Dundonnell]

I should perhaps also clarify that Yehudi Menuhin received an honorary knighthood whilst still an American citizen in 1965. When he took up British citizenship in 1985 his knighthood became substantive and he became entitled to be called "Sir Yehudi Menuhin".

Subsequently, in 1987 he was appointed to the Order of Merit and in 1993 was created Lord Menuhin. That makes him, along with Benjamin Britten, the only musician of whom I am aware created a Lord.

Clifford Curzon the pianist received a Knighthood and a number of honours have been awarded to vocalists, eg Dame Janet Baker.

The intricacies of the British Honours System are said to be difficult to understand both within Great Britain and abroad. I must say that I have never found it so
Complex, certainly.....but so many things in life are complicated. If one puts one's mind to it then it can be understood

Whether composers will, in the future, be honoured to the same extent as in the past is another moot point. The days when a British Prime Minister would happily 'own up' to reading the novels of Anthony Trollope(Harold Macmillan) are probably over. Some of our American members have recently lamented what they perceive to be the erosion of cultural standards in education and public life in the USA. Sadly, to. perhaps, only a lesser extent, the same is true in many other countries. It is regarded as "more cool" to proclaim a love of popular music and currently admired popular music icons than to be seen to be "culturally elitist". Edward Heath was the last Prime Minister of the United Kingdom who appears to have had any real love of classical music.

However...I am straying into another topic and other threads

[Lionel Harrsion]

Edward Heath was the last Prime Minister of the United Kingdom who appears to have had any real love of classical music.

..since when we have been ruled by a kind of proctocracy. 

[semloh]

Knighthoods are by no means confined to the UK, and nor is the UK the only country to signify a knighthood with a title before the person's name. But I'm sure Colin's intention was to stick to the UK, so...

I think we may have missed

Sir Arthur Sullivan
Sir Frederic Cowen
Sir Eugene Goossens
Sir Hamilton Harty (mentioned as conductor only!)
Sir John Tavener
Sir Alexander Mackenzie
Sir William Wallace

As to the deservedness of such honours, who knows? I am certainly amazed, as others are, that some people have been overlooked (notably Vernon Handley), when certain others (who must remain nameless!) seem to have been unduly rewarded. 

And, don't you think the lists perhaps also reflects the increased status of conductors over composers?

[Sydney Grew]

And here's another gentleman: Sir Edward Bairstow, organist, composer and conductor, 1874 to 1946. He was knighted in 1932, and was the author of Counterpoint and Harmony (1937) and The Evolution of Musical Form (1943). A few of his compositions are listed in Grove's Dictionary.

[Dundonnell]

My original post was, quite deliberately, limited to a cut-off point for composers born after 1860

That was why Sullivan, Cowen(also, of course, a prominent conductor) and Mackenzie were not included.

It would certainly be nice if a similar, perhaps combined, list was produced incorporating composers born before 1860.

William Wallace, the composer, as opposed to Sir William Wallace, the Scottish patriotic rebel (and hero of that dreadful film "Braveheart") was never knighted.

Bairstow was knighted as an organist, I would feel, rather than as a composer

Yes, indeed..I did omit Sir Hamilton Harty and Sir Eugene Goossens(partly, I suspect, because of their dual status as composers and conductors) and Sir John Tavener. I shall amend the list appropriately.

[Sydney Grew]

One or two more: Sir Arthur Somervell (1863 to 1937), knighted in 1929. And . . . perhaps! . . . Sir Noël Coward (1899 to 1973), knighted in 1970.

A lot of these knighthoods happened because the recipients performed before royalty, I think.