Symphonies in Disguise?

[Alan Howe]

I am currently having a fine time listening to Korngold's early Sinfonietta, Op.5. The liner notes accompanying the Chandos recording describe it as "really a large-scale symphony" (at 43 minutes it is certainly lengthy enough). It is also an absolutely gorgeous piece. So, can members think of pieces by other composers which are symphonies in all but name?

[Christo]

The most famous case, perhaps, is La Mer by Debussy.

And there are more sinfoniettas that could have done without the diminutive. I'm thinking of E.J. Moeran's Sinfonietta, rather his Second Symphony.

Another case is Bohuslav Martinů. Some of his later orchestral output could easily be regarded symphonies, natural successors to his Sixth, Fantaisies symphoniques. In particular his Frescoes of Piero della Francesca ('Symphony No. 7'), The Parables ('Symphony No. 8') and Estampes ('Symphony No. 9' - or a higher number, taking into account other works liks the Toccata e Due Canzoni as well. 

[albion]

Edward German's two large-scale four-movement scores Symphonic Suite in D minor, The Leeds Suite (1895) and The Seasons (1899). German probably fought shy of calling any further works 'Symphonies' after Shaw threw brickbats at No.2, The Norwich (1893)...

[Christo]

after Shaw threw brickbats at No.2 ..

Did he?   

[albion]

Did he?   

He regarded it as too much in the vein of German's theatre music and thus insufficiently symphonic. Characteristically quixotic, Shaw also criticised German's overture to Richard III (1889) for containing a carefully-wrought fugal section based on a theme identified with the title-character ...

[Alan Howe]

Thanks for the suggestions. I agree 100% about La Mer.
What about Strauss' Heldenleben? Or Reger's giant-sized Sinfonietta?
Just a thought: is sometimes it a question of perceived mood whether a particular piece of music is designated 'symphony' or not (e.g. the Korngold or Reger?) Or do some composers simply want to avoid the term and all the baggage that goes with it?

[Jimfin]

I'm not sure why Havergal Brian didn't call his Concerto for Orchestra a symphony: maybe he felt the numbering was getting out of hand. George Lloyd packed up and stopped writing symphonies at no. 12, after 57 years, but he never seems to have quite escaped: his next work was a 'Symphonic Mass' and then his 'Litany' is surely a choral symphony in all but name.
        On a slightly different note, Elgar called "The Black Knight" a symphony, but the title has been all but ignored. Indeed, many people have claimed that Mahler's 8th was the first all-choral symphony (ie, sung all the way through), but the Elgar comes earlier. In fact I'm not sure anyone had written an all-choral symphony before him, but doubtless many of you know of other examples.

[mbhaub]

And then there are the "symphonies" that really aren't: Gottschalk No 1 (Night in the Tropics)....

[chill319]

In its inimitable way, Janacek's Sinfonietta strikes me as being a full fledged symphony. Anyone disagree?

[TerraEpon]

And then there are the "symphonies" that really aren't: Gottschalk No 1 (Night in the Tropics)....

What would you call it then? I guess it could be a tone poem in two parts or something...

[Christo]

In its inimitable way, Janacek's Sinfonietta strikes me as being a full fledged symphony. Anyone disagree?

Errrr, no. 

[Jimfin]

Some symphonies have a rather dubious history: Crossley-Holland's started out as several different pieces and rather sounds like it, although it's so beautiful I don't care. Boughton's 2nd was just ballet music with the beginning removed, as I recall, but it works well. I would agree that the Janacek could easily be called a symphony and is certainly equal to many of the best; Moeran's too (which I actually rather prefer to the G minor Symphony)

[Sydney Grew]

Some have nominated Berg's opus six (1915): Prelude, Reigen and March. I don't know what the key relationships are, or even whether that is an important consideration in the definition of a "symphony."

[eschiss1]

Hrm. Is Berlioz' Romeo et Juliet close enough to all-choral?

[Jimfin]

I wouldn't say so, as it has at least two all-orchestral movements, and it was certainly in my mind. 'The Black Knight' is sung basically throughout, as is Mahler's 8th, VW's Sea Symphony, Holst's Choral Symphony and lots of other 20th century ones. But "Romeo and Juliet" is certainly a lot more sung than anything I'm aware of before it.