Romantic PCs from Brilliant Classics

[thalbergmad]

I'm very much in doubt whether to buy the set or not. If I do, it's only for Hiller's Konzertstück and especially Bronsart's PC. On the other hand, only this year I've bought over 150 CDs already, so why not add this box to the collection as well...?

I think it is about time somebody bought one for you then my friend. An ideal opportunity as we get ever closer to the time of year when ones credit card spends more time out of the wallet.

This is a serious bargain even to those who have heard all of these and to be honest, i would have paid double the asking price. The cuts do not bother me nor the recording quality & i am a great admirer of Mr Ponti. To compare them to Hyperion's issues, is a bit like comparing the girl next door to a airbrushed playboy centrefold. To some, the girl next door is more attractive.

To my ears, Ponti's recording of the Rubinstein 4 is by far superior to MAH's note perfect but banal effort. I might be in the minority here though.

Thal

[JimL]

I second you on Ponti regarding Rubi 4, even without hearing Hamelin's take.  It is indeed way too bad that the production values on that particular effort were probably far inferior to Hyperion's.  Othmar Maga did a creditable job conducting in support of Ponti - when you could hear him at all.  And I second Steve on the Bronsart concerto.  Of all the concertos by Liszt's disciples this one and the D'Albert 2nd are probably the strongest efforts.  Unlike the D'Albert, Bronsart's concerto is in the three traditional movements, however both works use Liszt's cyclic approach.  That slow theme (actually the 3rd theme in the first movement, a la the Raff PC) pops up in the finale, the 2nd theme in the first movement recurs twice in the slow movement.  The Raff concerto is a good comparison with the Bronsart in some respects.  The proportions are quite similar (mid-sized, like the Schumann, Henselt or Grieg concertos) and there are cyclic elements.  Bronsart even has some Raffian contrapuntal tricks up his sleeve in the finale.

[Steve B]

Thalbergmad, ur post made me laugh; though in my case it would be the BOY next door . Its funny how fashions change. 80 years ago it would have been acceptable to play these works flamboyantly and with some poetic freedom or "license", as Ponti does, eg. in tempi, rubato; even cuts.

My theory is that a lot of it is to do with the way in which (mainly!)males deem it acceptable to express and experience emotion(s). Too much flamboyance, heart on sleeve emotion is somehow less valid than a rigorous, cerebralised emotion, driven chiefly and ultimately by the intellect; where one must realise the composer's "true intentions", "let the music speak for itself"; music does not speak for itself, it needs individual interpretation. At the moment, the academic, (mainly!) male-driven fashion is for, taking pianistic practise as an example, not too much of the extreme kind of rubato(which Paderewski, for instance, advocated, whereby if you lengthen some notes in a bar you DON'T have to compensate by shortening the others), no extra arpeggiation of notes(unless in the score)etc.

Also, there is a hierarchy of emotions; you see this, for example, on the mostly excellent Amazon.com Classical Music Forum, whereby the emotion of a Beethoven Quartet is seen as rareified and qualitively "better"/"deeper" than that of the Moszkowski Violin Concerto or Raff Piano Concerto(for instance,); even though both can tug at the heartstrings in equal, but different, ways; but the Ponti-esque, romanticised Romantic era Piano Concerto is viewed as qualitatively lesser because it appeals to baser emotions, or more direct; i personally would say less filtered through the intellect.

Of course, I am simplifying to make a point. A Beethoven String Quartet is a visceral deeply emotional experience, just as some of our unsungs can be to us.But I mean what I say.

Another example would be Trochopoulos playing the Pabst Concerto versus Marsheev; the latter, indeed, is not the least flamboyant pianist of these concerti(in style), but Trochopoulos, despite the boomy recording, the occasional error and the less than perfect BeloRussian orchestra plays ardently, with passionate use of rubato and makes the Pabst LIVE/ALIVE
These are merely my opinions, else I would be setting up a reverse hierarchy(equally hieracrchical,) so please DON'T TAKE OFFENCE .

But the way we like our emotion in music, and how much that is part of the inner self and how much is socially/academic fashion driven, is, to me anyway, an interesting question; and leads to threads like this on whether the Hyperion pianists are the sine qua non as regards interpretation of our favourite concerti or whether pianists of the older more flamboyant style, like Ponti, and Trochopoulos, have indeed got a great deal to offer too.

Discuss!

Steve

[thalbergmad]

Its funny how fashions change. 80 years ago it would have been acceptable to play these works flamboyantly and with some poetic freedom or "license", as Ponti does, eg. in tempi, rubato; even cuts.

To me, the score to a romantic work is a suggestion as opposed to a rule book. I cannot help but feel that Ponti's recording of the Rub 4 is closer to how it would have been played 100 years ago.

There does seem to be a tendency nowadays to seek the note perfect and 100% to the score recordings, which in my opinion can lead to boring recordings. I would actually rather listen to a midi than Hamelins Rubinstein 4 again.

Perhaps the root of the problem (if there is one), is in todays piano competitions, where nothing but accuracy and adherence to the score seems to matter. A 19th Century titan like Rosenthal might not even get past the first round of a modern competition and this to me is a shame.

Thal

[Steve B]

Thanks, Thalberg and Amphissa; good to hear some similar views.

Steve

[Gareth Vaughan]

I very much enjoyed Cherkassky's Rubinstein 4 - and, indeed, was lucky enough to hear him perform this concerto live.

[chill319]

For those who like to try things out at the keyboard, there's a downloadable solo piano arrangement of the Bronsart here:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Bronsart_von_Schellendorff,_Hans

[Alan Howe]

Just received my copy of the set today. I am currently listening to Raff's PC, and, wow, does Ponti grab the piece by the scruff of the neck! OK, it's all a bit unsubtle, the orchestral support isn't wonderful, the recording's a bit thin - but I think that the more modern performances could benefit from some of Ponti's vim and vigour.

[thalbergmad]

I have to wait until tomorrow, but i can see it now under the tree.

Only Christmas can make a man suffer this much.

I am particularly looking forward to the Volkmann which I have been told is a superb work.

Thal

[Peter1953]

I'm awaiting the CD box too, but I won't get if from Santa Claus. On 3 December I received an e-mail from MDT that the box was out of stock or not released yet, so I'm very pleased to read Alan's post.

I wonder how the Volkmann sounds, Thal. I have only 3 works by Volkmann (Cello Concerto, Piano Sonata in C Minor, op.12 and a Fantasy for piano in C Major, op. 25a). I don't like each of these works, and find the Cello Concerto even utterly nervous.
The Bronsart is the PC which I long to hear most (and the Mayr the least). But there is more to enjoy. I used to had Cramer's PC 5 on a tape, and now I have Cramer's PCs 2, 7 and 8 on a disc. I hope the one in the collection is #5, because I remember that was a lovely concerto. I must have some patience for a few days...

[thalbergmad]

I hope when you get yours Peter it has not got 2 CD's Number 5 and 0 CD number 15. Obviously the person packing them had a little too much to drink.

What a damned nuisance this is.

Cramer 5 was one of the concerti I had heard before and what a delight it is.

Got a lot of listening to do.

Thal

[Alan Howe]

Peter: try the Volkmann symphonies, especially No.1 - a near-masterpiece and very exciting too!!

[JimL]

The three Cramer concertos I have I found a waste of time.  Absolutely no interactions of interest between piano and orchestra, scant use (if any) of winds or full orchestra while the soloist was playing, utter lack of drama, competition or partnership as a result.  Cramer looked at himself as a "neo-Mozartean" but it was the Mozart of the early ad-libitum winds concertos.  If #5 is any different please let me know.

[thalbergmad]

If #5 is any different please let me know.

It ain't, but personally I like it.

Sounds like you had better not bother with CD No.1 Jim, which i have just finished listening to.

I had forgotten just how charming Czerny could be.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

CD3 is stunning. Ponti does a magnificent job with the Litolff.

What a stunning concerto and what playing.

Thal