Rauchenecker Symphony No. 1 in F minor, etc.

[John Boyer]

I wonder how many repeat hearings Hurwitz does before publishing his opinion?  It does pay off to listen more than once. 

[terry martyn]

He reached his 2000th video milestone yesterday, in a handful of years. Where does he find the time to listen even once?

[Alan Howe]

Most of his videos are on familiar repertoire in established recordings which he knows well. I'm afraid, though, that he sometimes makes snap judgments on music he doesn't know and hasn't researched properly.

[John Boyer]

I just listened to Herzogenberg's Odysseus Symphony again and could not for a moment think of it as absolute music. Every bar shouted out, "Program!  Program!  Getcha program here!"

Alan's original thesis sounds more correct all the time. 

[Alan Howe]

Thanks, John.

I wonder if anyone has compared Rauchenecker's use of the brass with, say Dvorak's 9th?

[Double-A]

Abou "German" music:  In cultural/artistic contexts German means everyone whose primary language is German.  Grillparzer, Gottfried Keller, Storm, Fontane are all German writers. In the same way Bruckner and Brahms both count as German.  Especially in the 1870s when Germany as a nation state was still very very young.

[Alan Howe]

Bruckner and Brahms both count as German

No: they may both count as German speakers or as members of the wider Austro-German culture of the period, but Brahms was German and Bruckner was Austrian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Brahms
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Bruckner

[terry martyn]

As a historian, I can say that the President of the German Confederation from 1815 to 1866 was the Hapsburg Emperor of Austria

[eschiss1]

"In cultural/artistic contexts", to repeat...!. Giving the composer's nationality does not address the claim. (And in some other contexts too. Consider Fallersleben and his poem "Deutschland über Alles", which as we know, was meant to promote the Pan-German movement, to unify the countries of German-speaking people and - as per the text - make this goal more important than allegiance to Saxony or other German-speaking states (perhaps even Austria) that at the time comprised what they hoped would become a single Germany. (The poem's title was, of course, reappropriated in the 20th century by Hitler's NSDAP and similar groups, but Fallersleben's original intention was hardly theirs.)

[John Boyer]

No: they may both count as German speakers or as members of the wider Austro-German culture of the period, but Brahms was German and Bruckner was Austrian.

By that argument neither Beethoven nor Schumann were German, the former being from the Electorate of Cologne and the latter from the Kingdom of Saxony.  Both died long before the formation of the German Empire. 

[eschiss1]

"Category: German people: The following is a list of people represented on IMSLP from present-day Germany or its predecessor states.*" That's how IMSLP tries to split the baby. (Which I readily admit is one of the worst expressions, but.)

*All of them within reason, not just West and East Germany. So Saxony, Anhalt, Bayern, &c, und so weiter...

[Alan Howe]

OK, enough already! Back to Rauchenecker and his use of the brass, please...

[John Boyer]

Well, returning to Alan's original thesis, I would even suggest that Rauchenecker is more Wagnerian in his use of the brass than Bruckner. Bruckner, of course, gets a lot of credit for being the first to introduce the Wagnerian style into absolute music, but other than the actual brass instruments he chose for his symphonies I don't really hear a Wagnerian sound when I listen to Bruckner.  Bruckner had his own sound, one entirely his.  It's not something that I like, but I do acknowledge it as his own recognizable style.

On the other hand, there are many passages in Rauchenecker that do remind me of Wagner, and this without using a Wagner orchestra. 

[Alan Howe]

I think John's analysis is spot-on. If so, in what way is this some anonymous, generic 19th century German symphony?

Here's the whole Symphony for anyone interested to judge:
(i) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4HngbGBjsM
(ii) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLtJ166aZ1Q
(iii) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmi4yDXA2Kw
(iv) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sok87EaaoLY

[Alan Howe]

Like Herzogenberg/Odysseus, Klughardt's Lenore Symphony/Symphonic Poem in 4 Parts, dating from 1873, would seem to be one of the earliest symphonies to be influenced by Wagner/Liszt - although it's not absolute music, of course.