Brahms VC vs Bruch VC3

[Alan Howe]

Does anyone here think, with me, that Bruch's VC3 is as great a work as Brahms' VC? It is conceived on the same large scale and has melodies even more luscious than those of Brahms. Discuss...

[jerfilm]

I'm not a huge fan of Brahm's concerto,so yes, I would agree.  Much more memorable melodies actually.   The true mark of a master is conceiving a brilliant melody.  But what separates from the run of the mill is then his ability to use that melody or melodies in an extended manner.  I'm thinking of pieces that just basically repeat and repeat and repeat until the end of the movement you're sick of hearing it, no matter how lovely it sounded at the beginning.  Not so withthe Bruch.

Personally I'm very partial to Glazunov's concerto.

Jerry

[Alan Howe]

Personally I'm very partial to Glazunov's concerto.
Jerry

So am I - wonderful piece. But I wouldn't include it in this comparison because it's on a much smaller scale. Glad to know it's not just me that rates Bruch's VC3 so highly, though.

[dafrieze]

Better than all of them, I think, is Bruch's Scottish Fantasy.  Great tunes (even if he didn't invent them all) and a wonderful opportunity for a violin virtuoso with soul.

[Alan Howe]

Bruch's SF is a great piece, I agree - but to my mind it's a different sort of composition. It doesn't aim to be the sort of large-scale, symphonic concerto which the Brahms VC and Bruch's own VC3 aspire to be.

[jerfilm]

The thing I find fascinating about the SF is, there are so many recordings (and it's one of the few pieces that I have multiple recordings of) each slightly different, a different passion, and each very lovely in it's own right.  Maybe it's a work that's hard to screw up.....

But you're surely correct, Alan, it's not in the class with the concertos.

Jerry

[Alan Howe]

But you're surely correct, Alan, it's not in the class with the concertos.
Jerry

That's why I find the comparison between Brahms' VC and Bruch's VC3 so fascinating...

[JimL]

Being a relative fan of the Brahms VC, the comparison does seem apt, since the scale of both works is similar (in fact, an argument could be made that the Bruch is an even larger scale work, since there is space in the first movement of the Brahms for an extensive cadenza which Bruch doesn't provide).  I find the melodic content of the first movement of the Bruch VC 3 memorable, but I can see how others might not.  However, it is certainly a much more austere work than the Brahms, which may be one reason it hasn't caught on. 

[Mark Thomas]

To be honest, I'm not so convinced that the Bruch No.3 is quite in the same class as Brahms' monumental work, and I speak as an avowed Bruch enthusiast. As is so often the case it's the finales which provide the most telling contrast. Brahms' à la hongroise tribute to Joachim for me is a jubilantly satisfying conclusion, whereas Bruch's effort, whilst still enjoyable, is a more tail-chasing affair. That said, I would propose Joachim's own magnificent "Hungarian" Concerto as not only the model for Brahms', but it's equal.

[Alan Howe]

Yes, Joachim's Hungarian Concerto is entirely relevant here. It's a work on a huge scale for the middle of the nineteenth century and must have served as a model for Brahms' great VC. For me, though, it does tend to meander in that very long first movement and I don't find that it has the expressive power of Bruch's VC3. But I'm glad you mentioned it, Mark. It's definitely in the same ball-park in terms of stature.   

[Alan Howe]

Actually, another large-scale VC (37+ mins) is Anton Rubinstein's, which I like very much for its memorable tunes and seriousness of purpose. It's also given a superb performance on Naxos (originally Marco Polo) by Takako Nishizaki.

[Lionel Harrsion]

...it is certainly a much more austere work than the Brahms, which may be one reason it hasn't caught on.

I very much agree with Jim about it being more austere than the Brahms and therein lies it appeal for me.  I find the ghost of Schumann hovering over it, perhaps more so than in most of the works of Bruch with which I am familiar.  There's no doubt in my mind that is a beautiful work.

[Christopher]

Better than all of them, I think, is Bruch's Scottish Fantasy.  Great tunes (even if he didn't invent them all) and a wonderful opportunity for a violin virtuoso with soul.

Bruch's Scottish Fantasy is strikingly similar to Rimsky-Korsakov's Concert Fantasy on Russian Themes in B minor, Op.33.....does anyone else think so?

Actually, another large-scale VC (37+ mins) is Anton Rubinstein's, which I like very much for its memorable tunes and seriousness of purpose. It's also given a superb performance on Naxos (originally Marco Polo) by Takako Nishizaki.

hhmmm...I must dust this one off and listen to it again.  I am a great Rubinstein fan, but I listened to his VC once (the Nishizaki version) and thought it was the dullest, most lifeless most tuneless thing I had ever heard and never listened to it again! Maybe I was having a bad day....

[FBerwald]

........ I am a great Rubinstein fan, but I listened to his VC once (the Nishizaki version) and thought it was the dullest, most lifeless most tuneless thing I had ever heard and never listened to it again! Maybe I was having a bad day....

I too am a Rubinstein fan but I think you WERE having a bad day. The Violin concerto is by no means his best work nevertheless it is well crafted and Sufficiently tuneful that it would make a nice addition to the regular repertoire .. once for every 1000th performance of Mendelssohn, Beethoven, Brahms, etc! 

[Peter1953]

FBerwald, you're a man after my own heart! Except for the Brahms of course 

In the meantime I'm trying to find the right words to respond to Alan's question. How to describe the shades of meaning as a Dutchman with a limited knowledge of the English language? In my view Brahms has composed the most powerful, emotional and greatest VC ever. But Bruch's 3rd does tend to imitate (no, not the right word) the way Brahms has developed his magical masterpiece. And it's a wonderful VC too, almost his best... Well, I'm looking for better words to describe what I mean.