Who was the most innovative of the 19th Century Unsungs?

[John H White]

My answer to this would be Louis Spohr.  My reasons:-
(1) His various experiments with the symphonic form. e.g in symphonies Nos 4, 6 & 7. No 5 appears more conventional, but it     has a motto theme running through 3 of the 4 movements. He was also one of the first to include a bass tuba in the symphonic orchestra.
(2) His series of double string quartets.
(3) His pioneering use of the baton in conducting. Up to his time, most conducting was done from a keyboard, but Spohr wasn't
      a pianist.
(4) His introduction of the violinist's chin rest.
      Maybe someone will now tell me that another unsunsung was even more innovative.

[Alan Howe]

Raff or Draeseke: both were in the forefront of attempts to synthesise the innovations of the New German school with the Classical Tradition, especially in the field of the symphony.

[Mark Thomas]

Actually, I think that all three composers have a claim on the title. My only caveat against the inclusion of Spohr would be that most of his compositional innovations lead nowhere and in that sense they were experiments rather than game-changing ideas.

[eschiss1]

Re Spohr- how do you mean?

[Paul Barasi]

According to Mahler it was Hans Rott "the founder of the new symphony"

[Alan Howe]

Rott's output is too slight to qualify, in my view. But his Symphony is certainly an extraordinary piece - even if Draeseke had been doing similar things a decade before.

[TerraEpon]

Reicha moreso than Spohr, I'd say.

[Alan Howe]

Reicha moreso than Spohr, I'd say.

Why do you choose Reicha?

[Paul Barasi]

Hmm, Alan, not sure on your Rott comments. I think only Draeseke 1 & 2 pre-date Rott and neither seem to be the 'new symphony' either in their sound world (which looks back more than forward) or indeed their architecture. True, we have only 7 recorded works of Rott amounting to about 2 hours and of this Rott's symphony is certainly the most substantial and creative, building on Bruckner and anticipating Mahlerian themes and ideas right across his symphonic cycle. I feel Mahler had a good grasp of what music had been composed and so my mind and ears do not readily bin his opinions.

[Alan Howe]

Draeseke 2 is the key work here - although the slow movement of the 1st Symphony is unlike anything in the literature up till then. It is the second movement Allegretto marciale of Draeseke 2 that is proleptic of Mahler to a quite extraordinary degree, and we have to remember that he was of Brahms' generation, born over 20 years before Rott. Still, as I said, Rott's Symphony is a marvellous (and important) piece.

Of course, Rott's music had a considerable bearing upon that of Mahler; in Draeseke, though, we have music which seems to anticipate other composers also, e.g. Richard Strauss. And in the Tragica we have one of the most original and brilliant symphonic conceptions of the 19th century - a mature masterpiece to rank with the greatest symphonies of that and any other period...
http://www.draeseke.org/essays/zeitgeist_1.htm

[TerraEpon]

Why do you choose Reicha?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Reicha#Works gives a decent summary of some of what he did.

[Alan Howe]

Why do you choose Reicha?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Reicha#Works gives a decent summary of some of what he did.

Yes - I've read this before.
Which works of Reicha's in particular demonstrate his innovative qualities in your experience - and why?

[Mark Thomas]

eschiss1 wrote:

Re Spohr- how do you mean?

I was thinking in particular of his love of novel "outside the box" combinations such as the double quartets and the small/large orchestras in Symphony No.7 and, in the symphonies in particular, his penchant in some of them for melding the four traditional movements into two or three sections. True, Raff also did the latter in several of his symphonies but it never really caught on.

[John H White]

I must admit that most of Spohr's compositional innovations were not followed up by other composers, but the use of the baton and the chin rest soon spread after Spohr had lead the way. It might also be mentioned that his first clarinet concerto of 1809 led to developments in the design of that instrument. Hermstedt, the soloist for whom it was written, instead of telling the composer it was unplayable, made no fewer than 8 modifications to his instrument, including extra keys and holes, to enable him to perform the work. These changes eventually found their way into the design of clarinets in general.
      I would certainly agree with Mahler and other members of this forum on the importance of Rott in the development of the symphony.

[allison]

I am not musically educated enough to speak to "musical innovation" so I will say no more than that I was startled when I first heard Berwald and Cipriani Potter at how their music sounded so much ahead of its time. And I became a devoted collector of each--thanks to this forum I now have so much more Cipriani Potter to enjoy! Is their some hidden Berwald somewhere?