Heinrich von Herzogenberg (1843-1900)

[Peter1953]

Dear friends,

Maybe you will say: again a thread on Von Herzogenberg? It's most likely that in the former Forum Von Herzogenberg already had a thread of his own. I cannot remember that. In that case, my apologies. But on the other hand I like to share my enthusiasm for the music of this great composer.

Over the past months I've bought the cpo discs of the 2 Symphonies, the 3 Cello Sonatas, the Piano Trios 1 & 2, the double CD with the Piano Quartets, the String Trios op. 27 and the Legends for Cello and Piano, and last but not least the Piano music on the Toccata Classics label. A lot of new music to discover and which I thoroughly enjoy.

To say it without any hesitation: I've never heard music which is (at least to me) so reminiscent of Brahms, especially the chamber and piano music. If I didn't know better, I should say it is Brahms. The warm and intimate atmosphere, all those delicious themes, the marvellous musical developments, full of subtle details, depth, well, it's all most captivating.

Reading all the interesting booklet notes you find words like "...his [Brahms] own mirror image", "... the Brahms epigone par excellence" and so on. And it's a fact, Brahms was Von Herzogenberg's hero. So what?
By the way, it's interesting to read about the relationship between the two composers and the role, or to put it better: the influence Elisabeth (Lisl), Von Herzogenberg's "warm and radiant, witty and intelligent, and very feminine" wife had on Brahms, her former piano teacher.

Brahms's style or not, all the melodies are Von Herzogenberg's own compositions. In the end we all love to listen to beautiful classical music, so who cares?

If the music of Von Herzogenberg was a woman, I must confess that I've completely fallen in love with her...

I'm interested to read your comments and if you are also as enthusiastic as I am. Any more suggestions? Other CD's?

----

I wish all Forum members a very happy Christmas with a lot of wining and dining, and... beautiful music.

Peter

[Alan Howe]

I absolutely love his music too. As far as Brahmsian influence is concerned, it's obviously there - but only HvH could have written his 2nd Symphony, especially that oddly oriental-sounding scherzo. And when we (eventually) get the recording from cpo of the Odysseus Symphony (from his Lisztian period) and the VC (from much later), we will know far more about him.

He is, of course, an intellectual composer - much less straightforwardly attractive than, say, Gernsheim. Nevertheless, if you enjoy a good work-out, the rewards are great.

[DennisS]

Hello

Reading this new thread on Herzogenberg, made me get out again the CPO cd of Herzogenberg's Symphonies no 1 and 2. I purchased the cd quite some time ago. Although I quite liked his music at the time, I felt that Herzogenberg was essentially "inferior Brahms"! Listening to the music again, I felt my earlier judgement was far too hasty and now feel that there is a great deal more to his music than I had first thought! Thank you  Peter and Alan for forcing me to re-evaluate Herzogenberg's music.

Cheers
Dennis

[Alan Howe]

Yours is an experience that I have had many, many times! And it can happen with any music, whether sung or unsung. So I suppose the lesson I have learned is: persist and re-listen. And then re-listen again!

[peter_conole]

Hi all

The aristocrat Herzogenberg's music is increasing in status the more I hear of it. Yes, folks, this gentleman IMHO was a master musician. Joke - I imagine him to be somewhat dour but not averse to joining Brahms for a beer or three or five when the mood was on him. But perhaps not.

Whatever, his E minor Mass, op 87 has not been mentioned. It should be. Romantic era masses can be wondrous -and there are a surprising number of them available in recorded form.

Alan, I am really grieved and disappointed about the non-appearance of the disc featuring His Lordship's violin concerto and Odysseus Symphony. It will be the musical event of the season when it does happen. Is there there any possible practical reason for non-release, eg, copyright issues? Am desperate for any straw of comfort.

regards
Peter

[Alan Howe]

There's just no news from cpo about a release date - sorry. Which probably means it'll be out soon! Or not...

[Peter1953]

For those who can read German please view http://www.herzogenberg.ch/Violinkonzert-BW-Einfuehrung.htm

[Amphissa]

 
Well, there's a truckload of chamber music by Herzogenberg, and I've never heard any of those CDs, so I cannot speak to him as a composer of chamber music. But I've got the CD of his two symphonies and can say quite certainly that, in regard to symphonies, at least on my stereo, he's competent, but he ain't Brahms or anywhere close to Brahms. That said, if another CD of orchestral music is released, I'd be tempted to buy it. He's good enough on his own, without reference to Brahms.

[Alan Howe]

Symphony 2 is far more than competent. It's an absolute joy from start to finish.

[Jonathan]

Morning All,
I have 2 CDs of his music - I find the cello sonatas especially good.  I was recently bought the Quintet and trio (with oboe) - both on CPO and it is all thoroughly good music!

[Mark Thomas]

As Alan will confirm, I have tried really hard with Herzogenberg. I have around 15 CDs of his music and have listened to them assiduously, waiting for the epiphany which you all report but I'm afraid that my Pauline Conversion is yet to come. I just find him dull, to me having (Odysseus excepted) the outward form of Brahms but without the inner strength or warmth. In the time honoured phrase: "It's not you - it's me). I know it, I've tried and I guess that I will go on trying but after quite a few years I'm resigned to the fact that no matter how hard you may attempt to persuade me otherwise (and Alan has tried very hard), Herzogenberg is just gong to remain a pleasure foregone for me.

[Alan Howe]

I can only plead: Symphony No.2!! It's glorious, uplifting, warm-hearted, memorable - and quite different from Brahms, although recognisably from the same conservative tradition. Go on, Mark - give it another go!

[edurban]

OK, I'll bite.  I'm ordering the symphonies disc.  How about Die Geburt Christi?  There are 2 recordings available on Amazon...any clear choice there?  I've been considering it for years, but there were cutting words of Brahms lurking in the back of my mind...

Alan, are there particular chamber works to start with?  'Must haves', as it were?

Best, David

[Alan Howe]

The chamber music is of a uniformly high standard: you could buy any of the cpo CDs with confidence - so it all depends what you like: sonatas, strings only, piano + strings. Follow this link to jpc's Herzogenberg page to try out some audio samples...

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/home/search?fastsearch=herzogenberg&rubric=classic&pd_orderby=score

I would describe Die Geburt Christi as more of an acquired taste, but there are some samples of that too.

[Peter1953]

Wow, Mark.

I love both symphonies very much, but his chamber music... That's a real find. I experience absolutely warmth, depth, and all those characteristics of real craftmanship. Herzogenberg really knows how to touch the heart. But here we go again... it's all based upon a very personal taste, I know.

His chamber music is gorgeous. Both symphonies are very appealing, but not of the same level as Brahms. But so what? They are still very pleasant to listen to and definitely not superficial. How I long for the release of his Violin Concerto. And what a pity that the score of his Cello Concerto obviously got lost. But we must be very happy with all the chamber music, which is released over the past years.