The best solution to the 'Finale Problem'

[Ilja]

I'd like to ask the forum what you think is the best, most satisfying and innovative, solution to that burden of the nineteenth-century componist: the wretched 'Finale problem'. We can all recall unsungs that didn't do so well, but who do you think made a good job of it - at least, whose finale 'belongs' most to the work it is part of? I was recently listening to Peterson-Berger's Fifth Symphony, and while I think that it does have its share of problems, I think that the finale is in perfect balance with the rest of the work.

[Alan Howe]

Draeseke in his 3rd Symphony - no contest.

[jerfilm]

Am I the only one who's often thought "If he'd only switched the first and last movements, it would have been perfect??"   Well, maybe not perfect,but much better.  It sometimes seems to me that a work starts full of inspiration but peters out by the finale.

I still like the finale of Alfred Hill's "The Joy of Life"

Jerry

[fr8nks]

The climax of Hans Rott's Symphony in E major begins with 12 minutes remaing and is sustained until the end.

[Alan Howe]

Am I the only one who's often thought "If he'd only switched the first and last movements, it would have been perfect??"   

The whole point of Draeseke 3 is that it ends as if ready to start all over again. To suggest switching them round is to misunderstand the piece entirely.

[jerfilm]

Oh, I wasn't very clear, was I?  I wasn't referring to the Draeseke- just many symphonys in general.    Sorry 'bout that.

J

[Alan Howe]

Oh, I wasn't very clear, was I?  I wasn't referring to the Draeseke- just many symphonys in general.    Sorry 'bout that.

Oops! My apologies too! 

[Ilja]

Am I the only one who's often thought "If he'd only switched the first and last movements, it would have been perfect??"   Well, maybe not perfect,but much better.  It sometimes seems to me that a work starts full of inspiration but peters out by the finale

I've always thought that about the Herzogenberg B flat minor (no 2 or 3, depending on how you count).

[Rainolf]

Draeseke's Tragica has surely one of the best final movements of all symphonies written in the 19th century.

Another master in solving the finale problem was Sergey Taneyev. Fo me the most convincing of his final movements are found in his 4th symphony, the String Quintet op. 16 and the Piano Quartet op. 20. Eg. op. 20: An extensive sonata movement flows into a fugue about its main theme and is crowned by a coda which uses material from all the three movements of the work and brings the turbulent minor key finale to a calm and solemn conclusion in E major.

[khorovod]

I find the finale of Taneyev's fourth by far the weakest movement in a generally good symphony. It's far too loosely strung together and the final statement borders on bathos.

[jerfilm]

Can I add a couple of "sung" choices?  Mahler 2 and 8.  And "The Dream of Gerontius" ALWAYS brings me to tears.....

Jerry

[Amphissa]

Well, ya know, we all love music anchored in the lyrical style of the romantics, but everyone has different musical tastes when it gets down to the particulars.

I need to think about this question, but off the top of my head, I'll mention Glazunov's 5th, Gliere's 3rd, and Tubin's 5th.

[Paul Barasi]

I didn't expect a Draeseke-Rott rematch quite so soon. Rott's last movement supposedly attempts a synthesis of Brahms 1st/Bruckner 5th (although the jiggy-fugue after the intro in Schubert's Octet last movement seems influential too). Of course, Rott mixes in loads of triangle and right at the end Wagner awaits – both also feature at the end of Mahler's 1st Symphony where, listening carefully, the Wagnerian underscoring in the strings can be heard. But for Mahler, Rott's symphony wasn't good enough for his big ending. So instead he used the theme from Rott's Suite in E major: for the standing bell horns victory peel.

Rott sweeps up his whole symphony in his last movement combined with meeting up with his musical heroes Bruckner, Brahms and Wagner. That's ambitious for a young man in his first major work. Indeed, it seems that he has thrown everything in to make for happy ending, healing the great political divide in Vienna's musical life. But I'm not sure that is a happy ending at all. For there is no return for the love theme that flickered so briefly at the Vienna ball early in the 3rd movement, because the heartbroken Hans Rott had by this time now lost Louise Löhr, the only true love of his short and tragic life.

[Sequentia]

I've always felt that the "Finale Problem" is little more than a widespread "everybody says so so it must be true" myth.

In terms of organic growth, the best ending from the Romantic era is that of Bruckner's 5th Symphony - no contest.

[Jimfin]

Can I add a couple of "sung" choices?  Mahler 2 and 8.  And "The Dream of Gerontius" ALWAYS brings me to tears.....

Jerry

I quite agree about those ones. He's not 19th century (but neither is Mahler , but I do feel Havergal Brian had a wonderful way with endings. The hushed ending of the 'Gothic', the grinding finish of the 3rd, the flood of energy of the 9th... I could go on. He wasn't always so sure about openings, though.