Favourite Romances

[TerraEpon]

Uh, the first three may be in the spirit, but they aren't called that.

It'd be like calling La Mer a symphony.

[Hofrat]

I did a quicky search and I found 2 romances that may have predated Beethoven's opus 40 and 50"

Anton Stadler:  Romanze for clarinet and orchestra.
Carl von Weber:  Romanze appassionata for piano and orchestra.

I did not find dates of performance

[Amphissa]

Uh, the first three may be in the spirit, but they aren't called that.

It'd be like calling La Mer a symphony.

Ah. Good to know. A romance is not a romance unless the composer titles it a Romance. And a symphony is not a symphony unless the composer titles it a Symphony. Thanks for clarifying that rule. It was very impolite of Chausson to call his utterly romantic piece for violin and orchestra a "poeme" rather than a "romance." Those French. Such intractable renegades. Forever mucking up the works.

[JimL]

I did a quicky search and I found 2 romances that may have predated Beethoven's opus 40 and 50"

Anton Stadler:  Romanze for clarinet and orchestra.
Carl von Weber:  Romanze appassionata for piano and orchestra.

I did not find dates of performance

I doubt the Weber predates the Beethoven.  Beethoven's Romances are relatively early works, believed to have been projected slow movements for a Violin Concerto in C that never materialized in its final form (I believe fragments of the first movement were completed by others).  This concerto would have predated the sole extant VC in D by around two or three years, maybe even more.  The Concerto in D dates from 1805-1806, so, unless the Weber works are from around his 18th year or so, I'm betting the Beethoven came first.  The Stadler, on the other hand...

[JimL]

Uh, the first three may be in the spirit, but they aren't called that.

It'd be like calling La Mer a symphony.

Ah. Good to know. A romance is not a romance unless the composer titles it a Romance. And a symphony is not a symphony unless the composer titles it a Symphony. Thanks for clarifying that rule. It was very impolite of Chausson to call his utterly romantic piece for violin and orchestra a "poeme" rather than a "romance." Those French. Such intractable renegades. Forever mucking up the works.

Well, I kinda see their point, Dave.  The question is like the old "scherzo" question on the Raff Forum.  The minuet from Beethoven's 1st Symphony is more "scherzo" than "minuet" (just try dancing a minuet to it!), but it isn't called a scherzo, so Beethoven doesn't get credit for putting a scherzo into a symphony until his 2nd Symphony (whose scherzo is actually more minuettish than its predecessor!  Allright, so it's a peg-leg minuet. )  The point being that the question is really about who first called such a work a "Romance" or "Romanze", not about what kind of composition it is.  So, in this case the title is everything.

On the other hand, if I'm wrong then there's a whole lot of independent slow movements for solo and orchestra to chose from...

Come to think of it, did not Bruch compose a Romance in F for Viola and Orchestra?

[chill319]

For Beethoven and others of his generation the Romanze was above all an operatic genre. Adapting operatic genres to instrumental ends was a challenge Beethoven clearly liked -- the Tempest sonata and the opening of the finale to his 9th symphony being obvious examples. My guess is that he was aware of at least one other instrumental Romanze, but that the instrumental genre has a sustained history only because of Beethoven's opp. 40 and 50.

Personally, while I *love* Bloch and Schelomo, try as I might I cannot hear that meditation on Solomon as a romance.

[JimL]

Have to second you there, chill.

[TerraEpon]

Ah. Good to know. A romance is not a romance unless the composer titles it a Romance. And a symphony is not a symphony unless the composer titles it a Symphony. Thanks for clarifying that rule. It was very impolite of Chausson to call his utterly romantic piece for violin and orchestra a "poeme" rather than a "romance." Those French. Such intractable renegades. Forever mucking up the works.

Well is Lalo's Symphonie-Espagnole a concerto? How about Bernstein's Serenade?
On the flip side, is Alkan's symphony actually one?

Etc...

(And I agree about Schlomo, I can't see it being in the same genre as we're refering to, no matter what the name)

[Steve B]

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet:)

Steve

[FBerwald]

Max Bruch's Romance for Viola and Orchestra in F major..... is surely one of the most bitter-sweet romances written.

[Jonathan]

Reger's Romances for violin and orchestra perhaps?