"Modern music" and Unsung Composers

[Elroel]

Modern music on Unsung Composers.

I've been informed that some of you had problems with some works of eastern-European music I uploaded recently. Among my uploads were some too modern for these pages.
I think I did not pay enough attention to the rules here: Unsung Composers of the Romantic Period.
I saw the the name Unsung, and as I have a collection of records, with a reasonable high percentage of unsungs I found this the platform to be. I really love it when I can help to spread the music, specially so when can do this as legally as we can. And on this platform we do what the majority of the industry fails to do!

I have no formal musical training, so I myself decide what I like and don't like. I'm not influenced by the used technique of compositions. I hardly ever am influenced by what some critics say about the music (well, I hope so). Only my mind decides.
Some of the 'too modern' pieces, you might have noticed, I removed from the site.
But seen my education, were these the ones?, or should I remove most of my uploads. It's all up to you.

In my opinion the beauty of music is: what it does to you; how it feels: feel upraised by it, may be, or it helps you through the darker periods. Exactly what a composer does as well; only he creates the food, and I eat it.  Btw, I'm not eating everything

When I for the first time found UC, and registrated, I saw so many works I only knew from name, or heard, once or partially, somewhere, and not a little number of completely new composers amongst them. With my collection I was able to give you, Uploaders', something back, and I got several 'thank you's' for it.
And, may be, I was to eager to give, that I stepped over your border line. On the other hand I also got a notice by one of you telling me that many works were 'out of his comfort zone' but not everything was 'banned out', or un-listenable. That gives me a good feeling, as it does when I hear a Spohr symphony, or that beautiful concerto from 1834 from the unknown composer , or the unknown symphony from 1999. It's the music that decides, not commerce, not rules,not systems, not time.
For me there's not really a ban on whatever period, although I have only a little interest in the music before the romantic period, with exceptions of course, as I have no interest let's say Stockhausen, or Boulez or electronics. They're works can not grab me. The same for  most avant garde works. The last ones I can't follow, the first ones are to static for me.

But, as I said before: you decide if you like more uploads from my side. As for me, you're not out, whatever you decide, because so many romantic hidden composers and works from the later period, /I like to hear at least once. For all your uploads I thank you.

Nowing what a lot of work has to be done to sustain this side, we have to thank the moderators for their job.


Best regards,
Elroel

[Alan Howe]

I'm sure we're all grateful for your hard work, Elroel - and for your contributions...

[Mark Thomas]

What Alan said. Absolutely. It wasn't criticism, just guidance.

[Dundonnell]

You are doing a marvellous job, Roelef, in making such a huge amount of completely 'unsung' and largely unknown (at least to me) music available

To be totally honest with you, I have not been able to listen to as much of it as I would have liked. I download everything orchestral from the 20th century and it is only very, very rarely that, having listened to a piece, I then delete it. The only time I have done that with anything you put up for us here was with the works by Rainer Kunad But then, others may disagree. Our tastes-thank goodness-all vary

I am sure that the moderators' advice is not in any way suggesting that you start removing downloads and certainly not that you should stop making your collection available to us. It will, I am confident, be intended to offer guidance and advice on the spectrum of music which the members here enjoy. The spectrum is pretty broad

My grateful thanks-once again-for your continuing hard work and efforts on our behalf

[allison]

To Elroel: As someone who loves Bach, Buxtehude, Mozart, and then almost everyone from Beethoven until Stockhausen as well as many other contemporary composers, I appreciate everything you have shared, so I hope you won't feel discouraged and will share what you want to. No one is forced to download something that they don't approve of. Thanks so much. A

[cjvinthechair]

Elroel - like you, I have no musical training & no expertise whatsoever. My preferred music is(still) Romantic (& Post-....!) and I delight in broadening my education, so this site has been phenomenal for me.
When some of the uploads here, and when I followed up the composers on You Tube, started venturing into the 'modern' era, I was a bit uneasy with the music (always will be with some of the more extreme) but your uploads and those of other marvellous contributors are helping me to appreciate that a dinosaur Romantic lover can find much to enjoy in later music.
Please don't stop pushing the boundaries as much as the members will allow - much of the joy of music lies in embracing new discoveries and possibilities, and all of you who upload for us are mightily to be thanked for giving us so much to experiment with.

[MikeW]

What Alan said. Absolutely. It wasn't criticism, just guidance.

What are the "unsung" rules? Every page heading has "for the open minded classical music lover", and there is the one reference to the romantic era that I've seen. But there is definitely a tension between these statements.

[Alan Howe]

Dates: roughly 1800 to date
Music: in the modern era - broadly tonal
Sounds comprehensive enough to me...

[Holger]

Roel,

I also think you are doing a great job. My own tastes are mostly 20th century but not too modern on the other hand, I mean I don't like Stockhause either, for example.

As the Kunad uploads were mentioned: I was glad to see them online since my Eastern German collection is quite large but I still didn't have that one – of course, the reason is that I didn't search for that LP too intensely since I am more interested in the older generations (like Butting, Meyer or Kochan – I will upload music by these composers at a later point). Nevertheless, I was delighted to find the Kunad here so that I was able to extend my collection still more.

I was also glad to find so many Eastern European symphonies for share here. I am a collector of symphonies myself, and as my Soviet collection is roughly near completement (but a few totally untraceable items) I am directing my efforts a little more towards Eastern European symphonism, so I was glad to get so much from your side.

Best regards,
Holger

[jowcol]

Modern music on Unsung Composers.

I've been informed that some of you had problems with some works of eastern-European music I uploaded recently. Among my uploads were some too modern for these pages.

I think I did not pay enough attention to the rules here: Unsung Composers of the Romantic Period.

I saw the the name Unsung, and as I have a collection of records, with a reasonable high percentage of unsungs I found this the platform to be. I really love it when I can help to spread the music, specially so when can do this as legally as we can. And on this platform we do what the majority of the industry fails to do!

Best regards,
Elroel

Concerto for Fingernails and Amplified Chalkboard , Dr. Emil Lizardo (1984)

East Peoria Death Metal Orchestra
Conducted by Ozzy Osbourne
Bootleg Recording from 2nd Row Left of Center

From the Collection of Jowcol



I have also been in your shoes-- and have received a similar warning.  (And am responsible for at least one "file deleted" on Dundonnell's hard drive--  )  I did not pull the offending works (one of the Admins agreed that it did not take up any of the forum's server space.)


I also had mixed feelings-- I had to make a mental inventory.

Cons:
I share Duke Ellington's assessment that good music is "Beyond Category"-- and my interest in jazz, blues, some classic rock and Indian Classical is as deep as the music here.  (Lately I've been on a Sufi binge-- but that's another story.)   If a work sticks with me, its honest on its own terms.  What is acceptable and unacceptable tonality is pretty debateble.  I like my share of minimalists, who can be extremely tonal and triadic-- but I'm not sure if I can share their works here.. (Okay, I only have a recording of the Lamont Young trio for strings,  but still...)  Personally, I'd like to see more of that stuff.  But I've seen minimalism really evoke strong  reactions.

Another immediate reaction was-- if someone doesn't like something, why do they have to listen?   I can't say I like all the downloads I've gotten from this site, and I'm not as interested in the  early Romantic periods.  But I'd hate  to come between someone who likes that music just because I don't care for it. 

Uploads don't take up any server space for the forum. 

Finally, the need to share and preserve music, to me, goes beyond my likes and dislikes.   I feel a real need to help preserve art forms under siege even If I don't care for them.   I can't say I've equally loved everything I've posted-- some I've not cared for at all.  But, in my case, I've offered to help someone share their collection, and I didn't think it was my role to judge.   But even if I wasn't a "middleman", I've shared non-commerical recordings in other fora simply because others wanted to hear the music.

Pros:
The admins on this site do a LOT of work, and I'm impressed how quickly they turnaround the download posts, while still protecting the charter and also the artist's rights.  Given some of the recent crackdowns on megaupload and some of the more egregious blogs, this may  necessary to preserve what we have here.   Some of the file sharing sites have banned all types of sharing, and are now only supporting storage.   Since each post requires work on the part of the admin,  I understand their desire to stick to the works they most want to preserve.

The other guidance I got is that the occasional outlier is not a bad thing, and does not need to be removed-- just that a steady stream of it would not be welcome.

Another thing is that there are people in this forum beyond the admins  investing a LOT of time on this list to download and listen to practically everything-- with the idea of identifying flaws and errors ASAP.  I must admit, I've never had that degree of support before- and certainly not as timely.   (As long as some of the research).   The indexes we are starting to create are also very helpful.  I can understand why these people which to devote their time to music they enjoy.  In particulary, I'd like to thank Colin(aka Dundonnell).  I may tease him from time to time, but he is a TREMENDOUS resource, and the work he is doing to help coordinate our collective "time capsule" is astounding.   I've never been part of a music sharing community that had people like him -- and it is VERY much appreciated. 



Conclusion:
Anyway, after my bout of soul-searching, I decided to withhold l a couple recordings  that may affect those with more delicate nervous systems, and to continue participating here, since the positives TOTALLY outweigh the negatives, and I am not only enjoying the music, but the scholarship tremendously. I have some concerns that some of works I've chosen not to share would have been appreciated by some members here, but I'm playing it by ear.

I still want to find a home for the "Unsung Composers" that aren't as welcome here-- I wrote the Avante Garde Project (a group that is dedicated to this), but did not get an answer-- your post just reminded me.   What I'd propose is to see if there is any interest in setting up a free wiki space (there will be adds) to post works that may be beyond the pale at this site.   I looked in to this after getting my warning-- but life went into fast gear and i took your post to jog my memory.

So-- what I'd suggest is if any of you want to see about applying the same sort of approach for more experimental music, send me a personal message and share an email with me-- we can take this off-line.  And in the meantime-- keep sharing, one way or another.

John
aka
Jowcol

[Dundonnell]

I do not want to add much more to what has already be said, except to thank jowcol for his very kind words   I do download most of the music offered on this site-but I am sure that I am not the only member who does this  It is certainly useful to have such a collection on a hard drive in the event of an existing link going awol. The indexing is intended to help members find music and to try to avoid time being wasted uploading music we already have.

Fortunately, I have a good deal of free time at my disposal and am therefore in a position to give something back to a site which has brought me so much previously unheard wonderful music 

[Jacky]

I have to thank Elroel for the large amount of uploads and their quality.I urge you,please continue these uploads.I am one of those who uploaded some "gritty,ugly"  music here in the Romanian folder.I think that our fellow members know what to choose.As long this music is not "An Ipad symphony" or "Facebook concerto" i.e is decent,earnest even without being Haydnesque,its place can be,imo,here,on UC.

[karl.miller]

I am reminded of a series of exchanges (several years ago) on the moderated classical list. I found that it is difficult to find a common ground even when it came to the use of the terminology..."non-tonal," "serial," "polytonal," etc. Many did not know enough about music to apply the definitions in the Harvard Dictionary of Music in any consistent way. It also amazed me how some found music not based in tonality to be "immoral." It wasn't that they just "disliked" it, they found it somehow immoral!

I have noticed that some members of this group have found some of the music I have transferred, and have had uploaded by my friend, to be "problematic."

For 17 years I had a Saturday morning program on our local classical station. I am reminded of one listener who called in complaining that the music of Amy Beach was too "avant garde!"

In short, I find it difficult to determine what might be considered...well, you know, I really don't even know what word to use. Would it be something like "tonal enough," "regular in rhythm," (how many meter changes per unit of time), etc. How can one quantify such a thing? Is there some formula out there...like X number of augmented 4ths in a given unit of time=dissonant music?

Karl

[eschiss1]

My own opinion by way of general response... too culture and time-dependent to be quantified in those ways, it's true, though a personal recommendation (not going to be agreed with by everyone or maybe by anyone else who's read it) would be to read a couple of things -
starting with Consonance and dissonance (wikipedia)

and maybe also some of  what Schoenberg wrote on the subject - of what tonality was and wasn't - in places like his Theory of Harmony, Structural Functions of Harmony, and essays in his Style and Idea.  There's some good and bad ideas there (I find most of them thought-provoking anyway).

(Forsyth, I think?, in his Orchestration, also points out regarding overtones- see the Wikipedia article- that this also explains the difference between the sound of a solo violin and a violin section. For those who don't know- I didn't, until I read this some while back- one important reason is that the violin section's individual differences in tunings and overtones are averaged out, creating a more homogenous sound; the solo violin not so... )

[Dundonnell]

I know that we recently had a thread about The Future of Unsung Composers and I don't wish to re-open that discussion......... but I sometimes find it both ironic and amusing that when I was an active member of another music forum until a few months back I came in for an extraordinarily personal and vicious attack from a member who accused me of waging an vendetta against atonal music which, apparently, I lost no opportunity to denigrate with my "sneeering references" whilst, simultaneously, championing the cause of outmoded, hack, tonal composers