The future of Unsung Composers

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks, Alan. And for ease of use - it's Johan...

[rbert12]

After reading the many thoughtful comments, I have nothing much to add, only giving my most heartfelt thanks to Mark and Alan as creators and administrators of this wonderful site!.
Personally, I would prefer to have a clear set of rules (any set, arbitrary or not) that will help me to decide which music we are asked to upload, so I will not felt guilty for adding to the site music which is of little or no interest to the majority of the members.

[giles.enders]

Having read the 122 posts on this topic, it would appear that it is the down loads which are the principal cause of the current problems. I would urge a tighter policy which would apply only to this particular area.  With the other areas on the forum, we all stray a little and it does not seem to cause any problems.  I would hate to lose the expertise for the slightly earlier and later composers which we know is available on this site. 

[Leea25]

I just have two thoughts to add. Firstly, that I too, would be happy to pay a small amount to be a member of the site - I know it is not being asked for, but I just wanted to mention it.

Secondly, so far as the 1950/55 date mentioned, when I'm downloading or listening on eclassical, emusic, unsungcomposers, youtube etc, I download anything written before 1945 without batting an eye-lid (there is almost nothing, possibly excepting Webern, I find I can't listen to in that period). However, I tend to find that from roughly 1948-1950, the proportion of 'difficult' music (to my ears) compared to 'approachable', goes up considerably, with the 1960s and 1970s taking some very careful picking thorugh. So, if it were my choice (which it isn't, or course) to put some sort of blanket date on the site, it would probably be 1945. I am aware that I am missing pieces like Prokofiev's 7th and lovely cello sonata and Miaskovsky's 27th, amongst many others, but I think that would be a very 'safe' date. For me personally, 1918, as mentioned some posts ago, misses out most of my favourite pieces! I couldn't live without Shostakovich 5, hackneyed as it may be! 

Lee

[Paul Barasi]

There's something to be said for a 1955 cut-off, so long as when the member who suggested it is asked to stand up everyone doesn't say "I'm Spartacus". (Alan may transfer this to the hidden board on jokes.)

[Alan Howe]

Thanks, gentlemen, for these further thoughts. The issue is actually wider than the Downloads section, although it's more obvious there, I think.

[Dundonnell]

So much has now been said by so many members. Their contributions have been distinguished by thoughfulness, courtesy and that inherent love of music which marks this site out as a beacon of good sense and good taste.

I am in agreement with very much of what has been written, especially, in the early hours of this morning, by Johan Herrenberg.

But I also find myself agreeing with one of our 'senior' members JimL. His wise words from yesterday regarding the importance of this site represent a view which has now been voiced by a succession of posters.

I suspect that my own personal tastes and those of JimL may differ-although not nearly as much as either of us may fear-but I have the utmost respect for those who cannot share all of my tastes in music and I would be more than happy to continue to belong to and contribute to a site which can encompass any of such differences of musical perspective.

I recall both JimL and I listening in growing astonishment (certainly on my part) to the Violin Concerto written in 1986 by the French composer Yvon Bourrel(born in 1932) and posted by jowcol back in February. This is the most gloriously, beautiful, Romantic violin concerto I had heard for many a long year. To have "lost" the opportunity to make this work's acquaintance as the result of the imposition of some date limitation would have been simply tragic

Similarly, the Joep Franssens "Bridge of Dawn", written in 2006 by a composer born in 1955, was a revelation Here was a work of such incandescent beauty, so reminiscent of the Mahler 5th Adagietto, that it brought tears to my eyes.

To take any action which could, conceivably, mean that such works were not continuing to be shared with music-lovers in every country, on every continent, throughout the world through the wonders of the internet and the extraordinary kindness and unbelievable generosity of other music-lovers would-quite frankly and without hyperbole-break my heart.

[Amphissa]

As Alan and Mark have mentioned, the difficulty resides not only with the Downloads section, but throughout the site. Although they have not gone into specifics, they have alluded to the problem of having to read every single post that people make in every thread on every forum. This daunting task, moderating the entire site as it has grown, surely presents a challenge. And since the content of the voluminous posts often drifts far from the interests of our two founders, I must empathize with their labors.

There are legal issues involved for the owner which is a concern. And I am also aware that, as the site has grown and taken a life of its own, it has become something different that they had in mind at the outset.

I'm going to make a suggestion that I expect to be unpopular, but I think it should be considered.

There has been an influx of new members who have joined the UC as members for no other apparent reason than to download music. They do not participate in the discussion forums or interact with other members in any way.

I am going to suggest that the membership policy of the site be re-considered. Allowing people to become members and download simply because they ask to join increases the risks tremendously. One board has recently had to purge a large percentage of its members and relaunch because they were there only to download and were contributing nothing. Then it was discovered that some of those who were downloading were turning around and commercializing the music (selling the recordings).

Briefly -- IMO, membership at UC should be a privilege, not a right, and should be reserved for those who are actually interested in being a member of the UC community.

I am going to make the unpopular recommendation that people not be allowed to download until they have become contributors to the discussion forums, perhaps with a specific time they must participate as well.

Secondly, I would recommend that members who do not participate in the discussion forums be purged from the membership. If they are sufficiently interested in the conversations of UC, they can contribute and later re-apply for member status.

The logistics of the membership process could easily be handed off to a couple of volunteers.

This would reduce the legal concerns, reduce the volume of traffic in the Downloads section, and re-focus the UC community on its original purpose, which was discussion about unsung composers.

Doing this, in combination with clearly stating the interest of the community on romanticism in music, would (I think) help conscribe some of the issues that concern Mark and Alan.

To those who might think this creates a stuffy old club, reserved for a few pompous eggheads -- well, so be it. The original goal of Mark and Alan was never to create a music download site. It was to offer a forum for conversation among those who share in the love of unsung romantic composers.

Okay, I've said my piece. I've put on my asbestos briefs and tinfoil hat. Let the flaming begin!

[Alan Howe]

I recall both JimL and I listening in growing astonishment (certainly on my part) to the Violin Concerto written in 1986 by the French composer Yvon Bourrel(born in 1932) and posted by jowcol back in February. This is the most gloriously, beautiful, Romantic violin concerto I had heard for many a long year. To have "lost" the opportunity to make this work's acquaintance as the result of the imposition of some date limitation would have been simply tragic.

Well, I simply can't share your enthusiasm for that attractive, but rambling piece and I certainly wouldn't regard it as a great tragedy if any site I was moderating did not carry it. However, I do realise how hard this issue is, because if ever a piece really did measure up to your enthusiasm it would be John Veale's VC, and that was first performed in the same year (1986) as the Bourrel appears to have been written. Nevertheless, these are very much the exceptions; for Mark and me they are buried among great heaps of music which do not interest us in the slightest.

[Alan Howe]

Thanks, Dave, for your clearly articulated thoughts. All I would say is that the problem affects the entire site and that, I suspect, a more thoroughgoing revision is going to be needed.

[JimL]

Okay, I've said my piece. I've put on my asbestos briefs and tinfoil hat. Let the flaming begin!

Tinfoil hats?  Aren't those only to be used to prevent the CIA from reading your mind with lasers? 

On a more topical note, there is merit to much of what you say.  However, I thought we already had some sort of safeguard in place where the administrators would check to see if there were parties registered who didn't contribute and excise them from the rolls after a requisite period of time.

[Greg K]

If carried out Dave's suggestion might well result in a large number of "pseudo-posters" contaminating the site, and ultimately making its purpose even more problematic.

[Alan Howe]

Mark does conduct culls of members - that's why we have 500 members but the latest membership ID no. is 3000+!

As for qualifying as members by posting a certain number of contributions, this may simply result in people putting up a load of "I agree" posts and qualifying that way.

[Amphissa]

I certainly understand the reservations about limiting membership, but I was not suggesting that we count posts. I think the notion of participating in the community involves more than a batch of "me too" posts.

That said, I knew it would not be a popular suggestion. I just thought it needed to be out there.

As for tinfoil hats, they are also useful against the rays used by aliens as they fly over in their UFOs. If you don't know about those aliens, I fear it is too late. They've already used their rays on you.

[JimL]

If they work on the lasers used by the CIA they'll work on the alien rays too.  After all, that's where the CIA gets their technology.

I think we've got to stop this.