The future of Unsung Composers

[shamokin88]

I begin by writing that I know nothing about the Raff Forum or the history of this site, how it came to be or what it was hoped that it would become. I came to it by accident having been prompted by an old friend in the UK to see if, somewhere, there was available a recording of a particular Catoire piece. A long poking about in the internet's thickets led me here, to this site.

The Catoire problem was solved but I found two things here for which I had been seeking for a long time. First, a site that had posted a great many pieces that interested me for one reason or another - a second a venue where it would be possible to share some of the fruits of my own collecting since the late 1950s, a point by which I imagine some of the members had not yet been born.

It had long been a source of frustration for me that while I had literally thousands of recordings in my collection I knew of no way to share them with people who might be interested in them absent knowing them personally. I trade with no more than a half dozen collectors, some of whom have become close friends of forty-plus years.

As for my own preferences I am comfortable with most of the music of the last two centuries, roughly, with the exception of vocal music in which I have little interest and what for want of a better term I'll call the Post Webern bunch. I'd much rather have Reinecke than Haubenstock-Ramati. But then, as I read these postings, the problem is apparently that I choose Gardner Read over Reinecke and if I upload Read Reinecke's admirers may drift away. I'm not sure what I can do about that except to continue to share what I've got and hope for the best. I'm not sure what I might do differently other than to enjoy most everything that comes my way between Louis Spohr and Humphrey Searle.

I upload music for which I do not especially care, a pair of symphonies by Heimo Erbse being a case in point. But even so I'm eager to hear the rest of them, no more and no less so than a string quartet by Anton Rubinstein.

The work that must fall to our moderators and encouragers is probably more than we know, and we owe them a great deal. If they lose interest because of what I upload then that is a problem. One that I have no idea how to remedy.

I have tended to avoid the discussions because I hope that aside from some fundamental details what you hear should hold its own. I am not much interested to read that someone prefers Joe's 8th to his 5th. That isn't going to do me much good nor, I think, that I prefer his 5th to his 8th is going to do someone else any good.

But it seems to me that this is a case of if it ain't broke don't fix it. Unsung Composers is an unbelievable resource. It will flourish only to the extent that we contribute some of our time and energy to it.

Put me down as naive if you like but there you have my opinion.

Best to all from Philadelphia in its third day of being poached.

Shamokin88

[Mark Thomas]

Thanks both Josh and Shamokin - just the sort of contributions which I was hoping for.

[Leea25]

I found this wonderful forum whilst trawling the internet trying to find a CD recording of a piece of music I wanted to hear - I forget what. When I opened up this treasure chest for the first time, I was incredibly excited - what an extraordinary store of music, covering almost 200 years from dozens of countries. I'm afraid reading this thread is the first I knew about the old Raff forum and even, I'm apologetic to say, the actual remit of the current forum.

I don't post much here for two reasons - I have no recordings to add (my collection consists of CDs and downloads from this site) and, to be honest, I don't feel qualified to say much. There are some incredibly musical and knowledgable people on this forum and I value their thoughts very much (I read the forum several times per day and thoroughly enjoy it), but my simply saying 'I like this too' wouldn't add anything, so I tend to keep quiet.

I am so very grateful for all those who put in their hard work turning old lps etc into mp3s, uploading them, and of course, moderating this forum.

As for the music - I have to agree, quite a lot of the music I have downloaded, I will never listen to again, but the interest and excitement is in the discovery. Whether it was written in 1820 or 1980, if I like it (and I can cope with some fairly noisy stuff in the right mood), I will want to go and read up on the composer and listen to more - this forum has truly opened my eyes to the treasures that are out there.

I wonder if the recent reduced uploads of 19th century music might be because of the lack of recordings? I am guessing, so please correct me. It seems that from the 1940s to the 1980s, approx, the national institutions of most 'westernised' countries did their utmost to record and promote their own 'new' music, on the radio and on LP, which is why there are so many recordings around compared to the romantics. Just a thought, but one which makes sense to me.

My first thought on reading this thread was one of alarm - I love the way the forum is at the moment. I like the music, the work lists, the discussion. For me, it would be a great tragedy to see it change. Having looked after various websites and things in the past, I can understand Alan and Mark's frustrations if they are enjoying it less, but I genuinely believe that there cannot be a date limit put on the site. There is still warm neo-Romantic music being written today, and there is difficult 'avant-garde' music from 100 years ago or more (thinking of Cowell, Varese, Stravinsky, Ornstein amongst many others). Where would one put the limits? Nor could there be a style one - that is so personal as to be unworkable. Perhaps the moderators could listen to each piece before it is posted, so make sure it is not too avant-garde, but that seem ridiculous even as I type it.

I don't think restricting the forum will prompt more posts of Romantic music - I don't know a music lover who prefers 'crackly-bang' music (as a friend of mine calls it) over Romantic stuff and I'm sure if it were out there, the Romantic music would make it to the forum.

Perhaps one option is to engage another moderator or two, and break the top level of the forum into two or three parts - perhaps they could be by date? Members would then have a clear place to post music from pre-1918, members who were not interested in much later music could avoid all the other stuff, and once members have listened, perhaps they could post something along the lines of "Incidentally, there is a lovely neo-Romantic symphony in the 20th-century section, by xxxx".

If it were my choice (and I believe, because I am, as I explained above, a bit of a lurker, I don't have much of a vote), I would keep the forum exactly as it is. There is a lot of 20th century music and if you don't like it, you don't have to listen to it. Having said that, I am acutely aware that I am not the one giving up my time to moderate it.

Sorry - that was rather a rambling stream of conciousness. In summary, I love this forum, am very grateful to the moderators and would hate to see it change.

If you made it this far, thanks for reading!
Lee

[Alan Howe]

There is a lot of 20th century music and if you don't like it, you don't have to listen to it. Having said that, I am acutely aware that I am not the one giving up my time to moderate it.

Thanks very much for your heartfelt thoughts. The presenting problem is precisely as you have stated it...

[febnyc]

I'll chip in here, on a rather warm summer's day up in Westchester County, New York, about 50 miles NNE of the Big Apple.

I own about 3,000 CDs.  Most of these are of music composed by the so-called "unsungs."  Yes, naturally, I have a lot of Beethoven, Brahms, and you-name-the-famous-ones.  But I rarely purchase anymore of these - I gravitate towards the enterprising labels and new repertoire from, often, previously (for me) unknown composers.

My listening choices usually focus on the late-18th through the mid-20th century.  I do however, from time to time, like to hear some modern music - the "thorny" stuff, I call it, which clears out the brain's audio cells and makes me sit up and think hard about what's coming out of my speakers.

What does not interest me are the downloads.  As enticing as some of them are, and especially those which otherwise are unavailable on commercial recordings, I never download.  When I am hearing something new I like to have the CD booklet in my hands and enjoy reading the descriptive notes.  The whole "package" of the production is a big part of the attraction for me, and to own simply the music without the (admittedly commercial) trimmings is not what I want.

And, while I appreciate the comprehensive lists of composers' works, and the effort to produce them, they are too much to get my head around.  I'll keep watching the label websites, and this forum, for interesting new releases.  I rarely search out any specific composition from the lists posted here. 

PS - I heartily support this exceedingly well-managed forum and have learned much from the knowledgeable posters hereon.  The moderators should be congratulated for their maintaining a civil decorum - which is a priceless commodity on the Internet. 

[albion]

Organisms have to evolve to survive - that UC is an evolving entity is clear. The last thing anybody wants is an atrophying old boy's club where the last conscious member turns out the light at the end of a quiet evening leaving those already comatose slumped snoring in comfortably-worn leather chairs. We all want new members to join and share their enthusiasms with us, but it clearly cannot be the case that we all care for music by the same (unsung) composers. Having said that - who knows, some of us may find their enthusiasm infectious.



If change must come, it surely must not be at the expense of the current vibrancy of discussion - no other forum that I know of discusses the composers covered here in such depth and with such generosity. From work-lists to discographies, from original research to advance notification of new recordings, members continually pool their resources for the benefit of others.



If moderation (approval) of the downloads, and the time commitment which it involves, is one of the key issues I strongly suspect that there are several members who have expertise in various national schools and a comprehensive knowledge of what is and isn't commercially available.

[Sicmu]

I have to say I ws a little bit surprised by some comments about english music vs the eastern one or music before 1918 vs music of the 20th century, one reason I like music so much is because it doesn't know any physical or time borders : Gesualdo is a modern composer harmonically speaking and George Lloyd is among the most romantic ones.

Regarding music sharing, I would say that a couple years ago I didn't own any LP's : I bought them recently and it costs a lot of money, it takes also a lot of time to digitize and clean them up, not to mention the uploading and posting work.

To be constructive I would say that the forum is probably the only one to offer so much hard to find music by neglected composers, of course a large part of the material posted here is not memorable (no matter it's from 19th or 20th century) but this overwhelming amount of music changes our way of  listening : it's now possible to be aware of this endless network of composers, some sharing strange similarities with others while separated by time or space (Gomshiksula and VW), some others forming a group or a school influencing each other and generating new forms consciously or not, it's like an organic development and an overview of the evolution of the composing process all around the world that only the internet and a forum like this one can offer.

I may resume uploading upon a decision of  the admninistrators regarding the direction they want for this website.

[Alan Howe]

I may resume uploading upon a decision of  the admninistrators regarding the direction they want for this website.

What direction would you like the site to take if maintenance of the status quo is not an option?

[Leea25]

Can I just echo what Sicmu said about this forum filling in the cracks. It fills out the picture of western music in the most wonderful way, enlarging and enriching a 'classical' music that is largely represented today by a tiny percentage of the work and composers there actually are.

Alan, perhaps you would be kind enough to give us some options. If you are not happy maintain the status quo, what would you be prepared to do? If you were not a considerate person who is asking people's opinions, what would you do with the site?

Losing any of the uploads here would be a tragedy - it is an invaluable resource for music lovers of any period, everywhere, and all the contributors and moderators should be very proud.

Lee

[Balapoel]

Hi Alan and Mark,
I would also be interested to know what options you are considering. Let me thank you both again for all of your efforts on this site. It has immeasurably enriched my musical experiences. My own musical interests parallel yours, particularly Alan's (classical, romantic, and late-romantic chamber music especially), but I find some interest in exploring the 20th century composers presented here. I have found a few treasures that way. My thoughts are to leave as is if at all possible, or perhaps engaging others to help with moderation/site maintenance.

I commiserate with your concerns - this site (at first) propelled me to purchase almost all available Raff... , though I never posted on the old site. However, it would be a delicate (impossible?) task to separate romantic, post-romantic, 20th century tonal, atonal, and others from each other as so many grade. A end-date (1918) wouldn't work so well either, since there are many tonal/romantic works that post-date this - including Atterberg (mentioned above), Alfven, Bantock, Bischoff, Blumenfeld, Borresen, Bowen, Bridge, Chadwick, Cowen, d'Albert, Delius, D'Indy, Ducasse, and that's just the A-Ds.

One alternative is having a separate section for obviously modernist composers, moderated by another individual.

Balapoel

[Alan Howe]

Alan, perhaps you would be kind enough to give us some options. If you are not happy maintain the status quo, what would you be prepared to do? If you were not a considerate person who is asking people's opinions, what would you do with the site?

The first thing to say is that members shouldn't worry about the continuing availability of uploads, catalogues, etc. Beyond that, rather than revealing any particular thoughts or plans of our own, we would much prefer to hear suggestions from members themselves. In particular, we need to know what possibilities there might be if the current status quo is impossible to maintain - which, I must reiterate, is how we see things at present.

[Alan Howe]

Thanks, Balapoel, for your thoughts. Of course, all the composers you mentioned could still be discussed to some extent with a 1918 cut-off date.

[Mark Thomas]

I've been away from the debate for a few hours but its good to see that it's carried on in such a positive manner. I just want to underline what Alan has said above: whatever we decide to do, it won't in any way affect the availability of all the posts or download links currently available at UC. It's far too valuable a resource to be lost.

To pick up on Belapoel's question, I guess that it doesn't take too much thought to come up with a number of scenarios: we could add more moderators or administrators to the team, or have dedicated areas for discussion about and/or downloads of different eras of music, we could be much more prescriptive about the type of music covered in UC, we could hive off a "19th century" or "20th century" forum or I could simply hand UC over to someone else altogether and let them worry about it.

Someone has said "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Well, UC may not be broken, but it is showing signs of strain and I'd rather carry out preventative maintenance than a roadside repair.

Alan and I, as ever, are working together on this issue to come up with an appropriate and effective solution, but I especially want to reassure those of you who are 20th century music enthusiasts that, although neither of us are very excited by much of the music written after WWII, it's important to us that no one group of members is favoured over another in whatever we come up with. After all, we are all here to promote the music of unsung composers, whenever and wherever they lived.

[JimL]

I know Avrohom is a Raff specialist, but he is also a "modern" composer.  He is well versed in "avant garde" music and techniques.  I don't know the current state of his health, but I do know he just completed his 9th symphony and may have some time on his hands if he isn't working on his 10th (or some other new work).  Do you think...?

[MikeW]

I've only been on here a few months, and was quite ignorant of the group's raffish past.

I was trying to remember what brought me here, and I feel sure it was because I was looking for some Eastern European or Russian nationalist composers of the 20th century. I'm no great lover of the post-Webern school but then again no new school of any genre of music has ever stopped composers and practitioners of older schools from getting on with what they love.

My interests run from the Renaissance up to today, navigating my own eclectic path back and forwards. Through UC I've discovered some great new works and composers, plus new online sources. I've been pointed to some real finds on Toccata and Dutton-Vocalion in particular ( and may have bought on some other labels but they seem to be mostly focussed on US markets and don't sell digitally to the world - I'll leave them to moan about their sales figures).

I think there may be less getting posted in the central Romantic period simply because recording artists are mining that content more and more to differentiate themselves, and there is less to discover. On the other hand, there still seems to be much to discover of richly inventive melodic Western music in nationalist traditions with a poor recorded legacy. If it weren't for off-air recordings I would know nothing of some of my favourite composers who are unsung outside their native lands.

As far as navigating this forum goes, it does not seem unbearably painful to me to subscribe to threads of continuing interest, to scan new the titles of new threads on occasion, and to otherwise use keyword search to catch specific items I've missed. Everything else I simply ignore and don't feel compelled to keep up with.

The only thing I might ask is that when a new work is introduced in a themed thread, is that a few broad adjectival brushes or apt comparisons are applied to sell me or allow me to move on quickly.