Weingartner's Seventh!

[Mark Thomas]

And right on cue after our recent discussion about the merits of Weingartner's music comes cpo's announcement of their recording of his Seventh Symphony. Some details but no sound bites so far from jpc here but the release date is 11 December.

[Peter1953]

Again we can be very grateful to cpo. Definitely a must-buy for me, not because I'm convinced the Seventh shall be a great work, but because I'm very much interested how this symphony sounds. I like to compare the work with the other six. I don't like all Weinberger's symphonies that much. Some movements of several symphonies are too noisy, not all are melodious or even pleasant to listen to, and I don't understand the Third at all (although I'm fascinated by the scary theme in the slow movement). Anyway, it's my curiosity why I will make sure that I find this disc under my Christmas tree.

[petershott@btinternet.com]

Whoopee! I don't know anything about this symphony - I guess it was composed in the early 1930s? And in trying to find out something about it discovered that it was written, not just for full orchestra, but vocal soloists, choir and organ as well. Its physical release on CD is an eagerly anticipated event.

[FBerwald]

Whoopeeee is right. The egoist in me things I should start a discussion about Gernsheim Concertos next [... and pls that discussion in another thread!!].. All in all this is a really amazing Christmas surprise! 

[Alan Howe]

I'm afraid it's not a great work. It shares with many of Weingartner's later compositions a frankly maddening combination of memorable and beautiful writing and dreary, academic-sounding stuff: try the awful first movement fugue which manages to kill stone dead the arresting opening (think Bruckner Te Deum) within a few frustrating minutes.

No, I think Weingartner was at his best when he wasn't trying too hard - which probably means when he was consciously composing within the idioms of other, greater composers - e.g. in the first and second symphonies. Beyond that he always seems to be reaching out for a personal style which he never really achieves. Certainly the desired Great Symphonic Statement was beyond him. Nevertheless, like all of his music, this is well worth hearing - even if it is, ultimately, exasperating.

However, don't bother with the hopeless sleevenote: this is another of cpo's Pseuds Corner efforts - it's bad enough in German but, when translated into (poor) English by the ubiquitous Susan Marie Praeder, it reads like a comic parody of a liner note.

[Josh]

As much as I despise screwing with composers' works, I wonder sometimes about some of these guys who could crank out a nice melody ... what if a modern composer were to work down some of this late Romantic monstrosities to shorter symphonies, using Weingartner's content but paring away some of the dead zones, and only inserting original content if absolutely necessary to merge one passage into another (like if the removed rubbish means a required transition is destroyed, replace it with something as short as possible).

Sorry if this sounds like an outrageous idea, but like many others, I've found very fascinating and appealing passages in Weingartner, and wish sometimes to just hear those passages that appeal to me.  Maybe this is all a bad idea, though, and I do "morally" oppose it.  But hey, some composers write "theme & variations" off other composers' works, why not a new game that involves shortening and reworking a piece that the modern composer deems to have meritorious passages, but too much filler or junk.  Or, if the content from one work is found insufficient, merge the "best of" from 2 works into one... Sometimes, this has been done, actually, as with John Barbirolli's Oboe Concerto drawn from various passages by Pergolesi.  And there are others.  Maybe somebody could make a "Symphony Drawn from Weingartner".  I think there are enough really outstanding parts here and there in Weingartner's symphonies to possibly construct an outright masterpiece.

All my opinion, of course, but I get this weird itch listening to Weingartner, like a diamond may be buried there and I want to clean the mud off.

Apologies if this sounds harsh, I don't mean it to be.

[Alan Howe]

Frankly I don't think it's worth the effort. Much better to enjoy Weingartner as he is and leave him where he belongs - somewhere in Division 2 (he's not a bad composer, after all); then one can cast around for a much more worthwhile unsung composer.

Dora Pejacevic comes to mind (inter alia)...

[eschiss1]

Division 2 (2nd-rate?) is where I put most everyone who deserves it after Beethoven, Bach, Mozart and Brahms and I suppose one or two others, who doesn't belong in Division 3 or lower, but that's just me.
Suggestion sounds a bit like what Weingartner did to Schubert for his own 6th symphony. Well, a little. Sort of.

[Alan Howe]

Well, let's say Division 3, then. But let's not get into definitions. The point is that Weingartner's ambition outstrips his ability, whereas (for sake of example from cpo's own catalogue) Pejacevic's Symphony has far more imagination, sweep and conviction than anything Weingartner wrote...

[petershott@btinternet.com]

I'm not going to enter into the fray in deciding what division is appropriate! Perhaps Alan's "the ambition outstrips his ability" is just about right. But where I would stick up for Weingartner is on account of the chamber music: not at all great music and sometimes downright clumsy, but in my view both more meritorious and memorable than the orchestral music. (Having said that I wouldn't want to be without any of it).

However main point of the post is the quality of CPO's booklet notes, touched on by Alan. I'm loath to be rude about anyone, and especially Susan Marie Praeder (whoever she is) for her English is certainly streets ahead of my German. But my lack of language skills matters not a jot to anyone besides myself, for I'm not paid to undertake any translation. This lady presumably receives some fee from CPO, and she's been doing the job for quite a number of years. What rather exasperates me - and it should be of real concern to CPO - is that over these years there has been no discernable improvement in the fluency of these translations. Rather the lady rambles on in the same turgid (and sometimes incomprehensible) way. Would it not be fair to say she has got herself a nice little ticket here and seems indifferent to the very obvious need to improve her act? Are CPO not aware of this? There are other record companies producing background notes that are flimsy and inadequate things (Hyperion the great exception!). But judging by the length of CPO notes (and the fact that they provide translations of nearly all song texts and opera libretti) the company obviously does care about the issue - and this translator seriously undermines that care. And it is a great pity since CPO are one of the foremost companies recording the works of often obscure and unsung composers, and thus there is often a pressing need for some background information and a clearly written introduction to the music itself.

Apologies for rather grousing on (and wandering off-thread!)

[Alan Howe]

You're right, Peter. However, in the case of Weingartner 7, it's the German original that's the real problem.

[eschiss1]

I feel like I'm being lazy, but does he set his own text here or if not, whose? (In re Weingartner's 7th symphony.)

[petershott@btinternet.com]

Nothing wrong with being lazy, Eric - I rate laziness as a virtue, and my quack also recommends it.

I understand (from the CPO notes) that the texts are Hebbel's Zwei Wanderer, Holderlin's Hymne an die Liebe, and a poem by one of Weingartner's five wives, Carmen Studer. I guess she might have been Wife No. 5 given that he composed the symphony near the end of his life?

[eschiss1]

According to Wikipedia (I don't know who contributed that bit, though I know I started the article back in 2004 on the basis of a tape of his 6th symphony and the score of his F# minor violin sonata- guilty, guilty), this is so- he married her in 1931.

(Larry Wall (of PERL fame) does mark laziness as one of the virtues of computer programmers. Good point.)

[Alan Howe]

Well, this moderator doesn't rate laziness at all - especially when it comes to keeping on-topic!