Unsung Monumental Symphonies

[giles.enders]

I would add Saint Saens third symphony to this list.  I consider it the best symphony where an organ is used and neve tire from listening to it. 

[JimL]

I would add Saint Saens third symphony to this list.  I consider it the best symphony where an organ is used and neve tire from listening to it.

Unfortunately, Giles, this topic is UNSUNG Monumental Symphonies.  Not only is Saint-Saens' Organ Symphony sung, it's one of the works which is keeping his name barely alive in the repertory.

[Alan Howe]

Untrue, Jim. Saint-Saens' name is fortunately a good deal more alive than you make out: Samson et Dalila is performed regularly all over the world, as is the Carnival of the Animals, not to mention VC3, the Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso, etc. In addition, ArkivMusic lists him as among the top 25 composers in terms of works recorded, so you're way off, I'm afraid.

And let's remember who moderates this forum...

[jerfilm]

Interesting how our tastes differ.  I'm a little late getting to this thread, but I chuckled back aways when someone heralded the Bruckner 8th.  I love the Bruckner symphonies but #8 is my least favorite.  9, 3 and 6 top my list.  Esoecially the Bruno Walter 9th.

Here are a couple of my favorites, I suppose they wouldn't qualify as "monumental" but they move me.  One is the Symphony #2 in Eb of Alfred Hill - subtitles "The Joy of Life".  The closing choral finale grabs me every time.  About the same can be said for the Symphony #3 in E of Joseph Guy Ropartz.  This one's also for soli, chorus and orchestra.  I guess I'm a sucker for big choral works - Mahler 2 and 8 are among my "desert island" collection too......

[JimL]

Untrue, Jim. Saint-Saens' name is fortunately a good deal more alive than you make out: Samson et Dalila is performed regularly all over the world, as is the Carnival of the Animals, not to mention VC3, the Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso, etc. In addition, ArkivMusic lists him as among the top 25 composers in terms of works recorded, so you're way off, I'm afraid.

And let's remember who moderates this forum...

Unfortunately, I'm not quite as optimistic as you, Alan.  If you compare the output of Beethoven or Schumann with Saint-Saens (which isn't too far-fetched a comparison, since they all produced around the same number of works), you'll find a far greater percentage of Ludwig van's and Robert's works performed with some degree of regularity.  This isn't to say that there isn't a large number of works by Saint-Saens worthy of more frequent performance, but, if anything, the number of works in the repertory seems to be shrinking.  It used to be that 2 out of the 5 piano concertos were firmly in the repertoire of most pianists.  That has dwindled down to 1 (and that isn't even one of the 2 former regulars!)

[mbhaub]

Saint-Saens' Danse Macabre is what really keeps his name out there. As a performing musician, I play that every year it seems. The Organ Symphony is pretty popular, but not so frequently played because of the demanding orchestration. In addition to the organ, you also need two pianists and a large wind section. But his voluminous output is known to most listeners by a small fraction. And it is our loss because he was a first-rate craftsman, if not always inspired by genius.

[eschiss1]

Saint-Saens' Danse Macabre is what really keeps his name out there. As a performing musician, I play that every year it seems. The Organ Symphony is pretty popular, but not so frequently played because of the demanding orchestration. In addition to the organ, you also need two pianists and a large wind section. But his voluminous output is known to most listeners by a small fraction. And it is our loss because he was a first-rate craftsman, if not always inspired by genius.

As with too many (even Haydn, it occurs to me), a lot of his music remains in the figurative shadows still- with both, most of the operas are more or less unexplored territory for most fans of the composers, let alone most classical music fans in general. I was so pleased to see that ballet music from one of Saint-Saëns' operas (I think, appropriately, Henry VIII!) contained the same Jolly Miller folktune that Havergal Brian was later to vary in one of his (recorded) orchestral works... but I seriously digress, sorry.
Eric

[Mark Thomas]

Martin wrote:

But his voluminous output is known to most listeners by a small fraction.

Isn't this true of even the greatest of composers who wrote more than a couple of dozen works? Most of Bruckner and Mahler is played comparatively frequently because their catalogues are relatively small. But how many of Tchaikovsky's ninety-odd opuses are known to the wider musical public, or Dvorák's or Beethoven's, never mind Mozart's or Haydn's? In concert and recital halls, the divide isn't just between the repertoire composers and the unsungs, but between the few works of the great masters which get played and the great majority which rarely get an airing.

[Alan Howe]

It is simply untrue to say that Saint-Saens' name is 'barely alive in the repertory'. In terms of the recorded repertoire, as I said, he comes in the top 25 composers at ArkivMusic and the frequency of concert performances of a number of his works ensures that his name is well and truly alive.

However, I do agree with the point that only a tiny percentage of his output is performed. Mark, though, is surely right: most composers whose names are well known are famous for just a handful of works...

My strong hunch is that Saint-Saens' name will always been known, albeit for a very small number of frequently-performed pieces.

[TerraEpon]

Even so, Mozart still has MANY pieces in the 'standard rep'. Just between operas and piano concertos he probably has more than Saint-Saens. Plus Saint-Saens may have a lot of recordings with his music, but the broadness isn't there. I only know of THREE recordings devoted to his piano music, this includes one for "double piano" of two piano music and the not-at-all-complete set on Vox, which has a lot to hate about it (1970s recordings in MONO. WTF). The last one is the etudes on Hyperion. And Saint-Saens was a piano prodigy!

[JimL]

The 3rd Symphony is the only one of his 3 acknowledged (and 5 total) symphonies to be familiar to concertgoers, and, as has been pointed out, requires monumental forces to perform.  Of the 5 PCs, only the 5th has a toehold in the repertory, where the 2nd and 4th used to be performed frequently.  Only the 1st Cello and 3rd Violin Concertos have any staying power in the concert hall, despite numerous excellences in the 2nd Cello and first two Violin Concertos.  His chamber music is infrequently performed, despite high overall quality.  Most of his piano music is ignored, except for trifles such as the Etude in the Form of a Waltz.  Occasionally one of the tone poems is dusted off.  Only Samson et Delilah holds the stage out of his 8 operas.  His Carnival of the Animals is popular, but was essentially a joke piece.  He's hardly unsung, but as far as the standard repertory is concerned, he's known by only a tiny percentage of his music compared to the aforementioned Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, et al, and I think his position precarious, as evidenced by the near disappearance of the 2nd and 4th PCs.

[Alan Howe]

Your extended list simply proves the opposite, Jim, I'm afraid. Anyway, let's now return to the topic...

[Crescendo]

Here is a small contribution to the topic. I understand "monumental" as a synonym for epic, not necessarily in the sense whether it was a particularly important work in the evolution of music. I also did not read every post in detail in this thread, so there may be some overlap, some things may have been mentioned before - anyway, my recommendations for unsung monumental symphonies are:

Marx: Eine Herbstsymphonie - There are two live recordings available. the latest by Botstein is about 20 minutes shorter than the first which i found somewhat shocking (what happened...?). it is a giant, wonderful swoony impressionistic work that just takes you on a sea of endless waves of emotions.

Hausegger: Natursymphonie -  A very large work. The last movement features a choir. To me it sounds relatively close to Mahler's earlier works though melodies and themes are not quite as developed.

Casella: Symphonies 1 and 2 - Especially no.2 is a totally neglected masterpiece. the last movement starts with a mahlerian funeral march and ascends into a explosive finale. an ecstatic experience.

Langgaard: Symphony No. 1 - Grand and utterly astonishing work from a very young (at the time) composer.

Ropartz: Symphony No. 3 - Another Choral Symphony. To me there are some spots that show some resemblance to some parts in Marx' Symphony mentioned above.

Roussel: Maybe not the most epic in length but some movements - start with the beginning of the third symphony comes across with massive power. also very enjoyable and deserving of a bigger audience.

I know Havergal Brian's first was mentioned and for those who are into extreme gigantomania I'd like to recommend it as well.

[JollyRoger]

I would add Saint Saens third symphony to this list.  I consider it the best symphony where an organ is used and neve tire from listening to it.

UNSUNG???

[Alan Howe]

Clearly not. Anyway, moving on...