Is it Difficult for an Orchestra to Make a CD?

[monafam]

This is not a challenge to orchestras around the world, but is rather just a question I had regarding the ease, or lack thereof, in recording orchestral works.

I think of the four CDs I have of Schmidt-Kowalski and realize that I have just a tiny fraction of his musical output.  Is it difficult and costly to have other works created? I'm sure there needs to be a market, etc. etc., but it seems like it should be easier in today's "digital" age to get these things done.

I probably need an education on this all.

[Mark Thomas]

If you are talking about the logistics of getting a CD of orchestral music made, the main problem, as we have discussed recently in another thread, is money. To record a full CD you'd need to pay at least 50 musicians for at least five days recording and maybe a couple of days rehearsal, plus the conductor, producer and sound engineer. Unless the parts can be sourced for next to nothing (such as borrowing from the Fleischer collection in Philadelphia) then there's the cost of hiring the parts or having new ones prepared from the manuscript and printed . There'll probably be the cost of the recording venue, although that might come with the orchestra. Once the recording has been made, the producer will need to go through all the takes, mixing and matching them to get the final production copy; probably another week's work.

These days, digital distribution avoids the physical cost of CD production, but otherwise you're stuck with the rest. It's not cheap.

[petershott@btinternet.com]

I'm as unknowing as Monafam about the economics of CD production - apart from a vague awareness that the whole business is fearfully expensive.

Can we try the question in, as it were, the other direction? If I hire an orchestra of 50 musicians for 5 days, plus conductor, hall, fees, art-work et al to make a full CD of, using Monafam's example, a symphony and concerto of Schmidt-Kowalski amounting to 60 minutes of music, then how many 'units' do I have to sell in order to recover my costs?

I've got no idea of the answer, but suspect it would convince any commercially minded person that there simply could not be such a thing as a recording music industry. For, alas, how many people across this planet of ours, plus the odd library, broadcasting station or whatever, are actually going to buy my CD of Schmidt-Kowalski (as opposed to waiting for a S/H copy to turn up, record it from a broadcast or whatever)?

Can anyone make an intelligent estimate? Presumably accountants within the CD industry have some idea. Or take a real example: how many CDs do Hyperion have to sell within the Romantic Piano Concerto series to make it at least viable? (I dread reading the answer.)

I recall reading somewhere a few years ago that Philips had never fully recovered the cost of producing their justly famed series of the Colin Davis Berlioz operas and orchestral works from the 1970s and had undertaken the project for the prestige they gained. I've got no idea whether that is true or false.

Peter

[Alan Howe]

Roughly speaking, I understand that an orchestral recording would cost a minimum of £10,000.

[John H White]

Surely this is where an amateur band comes in. For example, the Isle of Wight Symphony Orchestra consists largely of fully professional trained musicians who mostly make their living by teaching their respective instruments. However they come together to play as an amateur ensemble, only the conductor and leader actually getting paid. Nevertheless, concert giving is very expensive, especially the hire of the concert hall and the rehearsal premises. Thus, each player pays an annual subscription of around £110 a year for the privilege of playing in 5 concerts per year.
This works out at rather more per concert than the audience pays to hear them! Unfortunately, practically everything they play is "mainstream" so there wouldn't be any point in them producing CDs for sale.
  However, if it weren't for the far sightedness of another conductor of an amateur band on the other side of the Pond, namely Eugene Minor and the Bergen Youth Orchestra around 15 years ago, Spohr's  10th Symphony might still be gathering dust in an obscure German museum. Their performance and the unofficial recording of it together with the subsequent publication of the score has obviously inspired the two rival conductors to include it in their current cycles of Spohr symphonies.

[Hofrat]

As was said, making a CD is usually a question of money and who gets what.  I know of  incidents where a the CD was made but could not be sold and distributed because there was a dispute about the money.  The orchestra, the players, the conductor, the soloist, and others all have rights, and any of the sides can "throw a spanner" into the works and stop a CD from being made or sold.  The recording company usually has the upper hand because they put up the big money and take the largest risk.  My project, recording the Eggert's symphonies, could have been achieved 5 years ago but for the question of rights by one of the sides.

[Mark Thomas]

The best answer to Peter's specific question is "it depends". I'd say that Alan's answer of a minimum of £10,000 is about right - you really wouldn't get anything much for less than that. My guesstimate for a production with a decent regional European orchestra and up-and-coming but not star conductor would be nearer a starting point of £15,000 unless you can do a deal with a radio station orchestra or there are unusual local circumstances as there are in some countries which make hiring an orchestra significantly cheaper. So, if you work with a cost of £15,000 and you assume a modest dealer/wholesaler mark up of 30% between them, you end up with a sales cost of £19,500. Ignore for now that each CD costs something to make (about £1-£1.50 if there are enough pressed in one go), that means that you'd have to sell almost 1,400 CDs at £14 each to break even. That may not sound like many, but I understand that the average per issue sale from small labels specialising in unsung composers is around 1,500, so I guess that those very rough figures stack up. A sale of 2,000 units merits champagne. Of course, I'm not talking about the likes of Hyperion or Chandos here - their sales will probably be higher, but then so will their costs be.

[petershott@btinternet.com]

Thanks, Mark, for that calculation. I've found your response very interesting.

It also provides an intellectual and moral justification for my psychological compulsion to buy as many CDs as the finance permits! For how else could companies like Sterling or Toccata survive unless people like us helped nudge each release up to that approximate break-even 1500 number? (To take some examples, being able to hear - in wonderful recordings - symphonies by Alnaes or Noskowski, or chamber music by Gernsheim or Thieriot, is for me akin to getting to heaven. But I'm still astounded that 1500 folk across the world are sufficiently interested in such composers to dig their hands into pockets - perhaps the human race isn't so bad after all!)

And that's also the reason why I feel distinctly uneasy about buying CDs second-hand. I don't think twice about buying a motor car S/H (in fact I'd feel an utter prat forking out a huge amount of money to buy a brand new one!). But if I buy a CD S/H then I'm conscious of depriving performers of fees or royalities, and actually colluding in a practice to bring about the downfall of companies such as the above who are in the business of providing us with the indispensable furniture of any decent universe.

(And lovely bit of self-deception: if I land upon an irresistible S/H bargain then of course I seize upon it. But come out of the shop trying to feel smug, and saying to myself 'Well, the money I've saved there I can now devote to the purchase of a new CD'. (What a clear toad I am!!)

Peter

[mbhaub]

I play in several orchestras, and have made several recordings (the Arnell symphonies), and $6,000 or pounds would be a bargain of impossible odds. In my main orchestra, and we're all part time amateurs, it costs nearly $6,000 just for ONE rehearsal. That includes paying the rank and file members, the principals who get more, the conductor, the equipment manager, personnel manager, librarian, and renting the hall. No one is getting rich from this, either. A full concert with the usual four rehearsals and one concert runs easily $30,000 and that only if we don't have to pay for a soloist or ridiculously high music rental fees.
Recording has a whole other issue and typically demands higher fees unless the players unanimously (and I mean 100%)  agree to waive them. I can easily imagine that in the US that it costs upwards of $100,000 to record a cd with a really professional group, and even more in LA, New York, Chicago, etc. Which explains why those orchestras don't record as much as they used to, so now have their own labels.
Like others, I try to show my support of recording companies by buying new cds that I want, knowing that in a year or so I could probably get them new for a fifth of the original price at Berkshire Record Outlet, or used at Ebay or a local shop. At the same time, I do wish some companies would realize that many, many recordings in their back catalog would likely sell more if they would lower the prices. Great as the Solti Ring may be, it's 50 years old. Isn't it time to put it on a midprice label? There are some things that are finally affordable, like the Bernstein DG Mahler set, and perhaps the record companies use the older recordings that still sell well to help finance other new recordings.
What would be interesting is to try to have collectors who desire something pool money to get the recording they want. For example: say there are 10,000 people who want a state of the art SACD recording of the Gliere 3rd, with Neeme Jarvi and the London Symphony. What could that cost? Then everyone chips in their $20 and the work begins. Subscriptions have been tried before, I guess, so it must not work. And just how many people are there in the world who would surrender $50 or more for a DVD of Franz Schmidt's Fredegundis?

[Mark Thomas]

Those figures demonstrate the range of costs involve. The figures I quoted are based on my own experience of using provincial orchestras in smaller European  countries and I think I said that they probably represent the cheapest that you can do things and still get a reasonable result. As soon as you move to the UK, US or any of the big league European orchestras then the costs will soar.

[Hofrat]

Peter;

You should not feel uneasy when you buy a scond hand CD.  Someone down the line bought the CD new, hence the fees and royalties were collected.     

[Hofrat]

As I said before, it is the recording companies that have the upper hand.  Some of them are most ruthless in negotiations, browbeating the various sides to reduce their rights a meager minimum or waiving them entirely as mbhaub mentioned.  I have had a first hand experience with that.  I even know of a case where the composer was asked to pay a ridiculous advance by the recording company.  So, if you are looking for a reason why unsung composers are not recorded, there it is.       

[Gareth Vaughan]

A lot of works would not get recorded at all were it not for SPONSORS. These can be wealthy individuals (and these sometimes wish to remain anonymous) as well as companies and institutions. A lot of Dutton CDs are partially supported by the BBC.
There are usually very few problems about actually making a CD that can't be overcome with MONEY. But then you have to sell it - find a dsitributor first (not easy if you are a label just starting and haven't got a catalogue of disks); then pay for advertising and marketing - trying to get it reviewed is a nightmare in itself (most magazines want you to take out an expensive ad. with them before they'll consider reviewing it - honestly), etc., etc.
Ted Perry worked as a taxi driver doing nights in order to get Hyperion Eecords off the ground.
EMI paid for their classical arm from the profits they made on pop records but they wanted the prestige of recording the great names in mainstream repertoire that would sell - that's why they rarely did anything "unsung" (though they did dip their toes in the water now and again).
Making a CD is a piece of cake if you've got enough bucks. Selling it is something quite different.

[mbhaub]

Perhaps any of you who live in countries where orchestras are supported by the taxpayers can reply to this. I would seem that if the taxpayers pay for the musicians that there should be some pay back to the public. Like, not charging for concerts, making recordings for free (or for minimal cost), etc. Does that make any sense? In the US, if the taxpayers pay for it, then in general the public "owns" it and at least admission charges are kept really low. But orchestras are not subsidized by the taxpayers, so ticket prices are ridiculously high, and recording out of sight. The groups that are taxpayer funded are university orchestras and the military bands, but when they play admission is free. When the university opera is on, tickets are just a few dollars, but nothing like tickets of a professional group.
One country that fascinates me is Germany. There are so many orchestras and many of them of superb quality. Like Berlin, Dresden, Leipzig, Munich, Stuttgart, Hamburg, Bamberg, Cologne, and dozens more. Are they all government sponsored? What are ticket prices like? How much do they charge for recording? Are the players really well paid (like New York or Cleveland or Chicago) or are salaries more modest? I'd like to know!
Same in England. I know that many orchestras like the London Symphony and London Philharmonic are private organizations, but the BBC orchestras aren't. So are tickets cheaper for the BBC Philharmonic? Is it cheaper for Chandos to record with a BBC orchestra than with others?

[Mark Thomas]

I can't answer all your questions, Martin, I'm afraid. But, to answer some:

In the UK, ticket prices for the major orchestras tend to go from £20-45 depending on the seat. We go regularly to City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra concerts. The CBSO is one of the best of our provincial orchestras and the best seats in the house are now £39.50 - four years ago they were £35. We recently booked to see Dudamel and the LA Phil at the Barbican in London in a year's time and the tickets were £45 apiece! Of course, we should remember that tickets to see well known bands, never mind global superstars like Madonna or Michael Jackson, at major venues are regularly costing in the £100s. I can't say that I've noticed significantly cheaper prices when I've heard a concert given by one of the BBC orchestras, but a lot depends upon the venue I'm sure.

I have quite a bit of experience of one European country where there is some public subsidy of the provincial orchestras, mainly through the underwriting of losses and the guarantee to orchestral players of their status as full-time employees with full contractual rights. The orchestras there are generally co-operatives and, as I understand it, the quid pro quo is that when they aren't employed in rehearsing, giving concerts or accompanying theatrical productions, they must be prepared to offer their time effectively free for educational purposes and other public-spirited enterprises, one of which is recording music for companies registered in that country. Even better, if a company is happy to use the orchestra's resident conductor, then he comes free too as long as it's within his contractual period of residence. Obviously, that does mean that recordings can be made significantly more cheaply. I should add that, despite the state support,  I didn't notice ticket prices there being that much cheaper than home in the UK.

Another way of getting a recording made more cheaply is to do a deal with an orchestra's owners. In Germany,  most, if not all, of the major radio broadcasters have a classical station and at least one, sometime two, in-house orchestras. Labels like cpo do deals with the radio station to either publish an existing recording made by its orchestra, originally just for broadcast, or for them to record a work specifically with both broadcast and CD issue in mind. Of course, the label has at least to pay a licensing fee and maybe cut the radio station in on a share of the CD profits, but the cost of production is hugely reduced and the orchestra subsidised, whatever the nature of the deal.