The quest for the ur-concerto

[Mark Thomas]

As Alan says.

[Gauk]

OK, Gauk: let's have your take on the so-called ur-concerto, then. It's easy to take pop shots at everyone else's suggestions, but we haven't heard yours yet (guns at the ready, chaps! )

BTW 'ur-concerto' suggests 'original concerto', i.e., in this context, the concerto from which all other romantic piano concertos derive. Obviously this isn't what you mean...

I really don't have a good answer, which is a major reason for posing the question. I will be looking out the Mathieu!

Clearly the ur-concerto is not literally the "source concerto" but one which sounds as if it might have been.

[Alan Howe]

The problem is that 'ur-concerto' can only mean one thing, if language is to mean anything at all - and that is 'original concerto'. In German, Urfaust, for example, is the original version of Goethe's Faust

Clearly you mean something different, but I'm not sure what...

BTW "Urkonzert' (the German equivalent) doesn't seem to exist as a concept in German, so I'm really struggling here because I really don't understand the question you're posing...

[Mark Thomas]

"Generic Concerto" maybe?

[Alan Howe]

Or 'most full of romantic clichés concerto'? In which case I would expect it to be something like a compendium of existing stock gestures - the sort of thing best done by later, imitative composers, e.g. Addinsell, Mathieu or - tongue firmly planted in cheek - Reizenstein.

[JimL]

If by ur-concerto you go by what Alan says, in terms of 'source' and we specify that it is an ur-Romantic concerto, I would point to none other than Beethoven's 3rd.  I've heard it referred to as the first 'Romantic' piano concerto, from which all others are descended.  If we're looking at the most 'generic' concerto the Paderewski is a good example, however I don't consider it to be distinctively 'generic'.  But we're limiting this to piano concertos.  Nobody mentioned violin or cello concertos, and I don't see an instrument specified in the topic header.

[Mark Thomas]

distinctively 'generic'

Surely an oxymoron, Jim? Definitively generic maybe, but something can't be both distinctive and generic can it?

[Alan Howe]

If by ur-concerto you go by what Alan says, in terms of 'source' and we specify that it is an ur-Romantic concerto, I would point to none other than Beethoven's 3rd.  I've heard it referred to as the first 'Romantic' piano concerto, from which all others are descended.

I'd say that you can't have Beethoven PC3 without Mozart PC24, though. Oh dear - the law of infinite regression?

[minacciosa]

There are two über-concertos for me: Joseph Marx' Romantic Piano Concerto, and York Bowen's 4th. Almost everything I want in any piece. Then Tchaikovsky and Medtner.

[thalbergmad]

I have never heard of Beethoven 3 referred to as the first "romantic" concerto and find the suggestion  baffling to say the least.

Thal

[Alan Howe]

Thal, I did some googling:
http://www.talkclassical.com/1005-current-listening-623-print.html

However, this article suggests Dussek in G minor:
http://members.klosterneuburg.net/handerle/COMPOSER.HTM

[Alan Howe]

über-concertos

What on earth's that? Do you mean 'ultimate romantic concerto'? If so, neither would be even close for me. It'd have to be....yes, you've guessed it: Rach 3. No contest. IMHO, of course.

[eschiss1]

...
.... all 3 Medtner?

[jerfilm]

Well I suppose we get tired of Greig, yet we heard Jon Parker play this with the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra this winter in an absolutely stunning and gorgeous performance that had me teary a couple of times.  When you hear a performance like that I think it re-invigorates your entrusiasm and love for a work.....

Jerry

[kolaboy]

I once made the mistake of watching that old Grieg bio-film Song of Norway. I couldn't listen to any Grieg for about a year after that...