The quest for the ur-concerto

[thalbergmad]

Thal, I did some googling:

Perhaps I should have done first . Probably worth a thread of it's own.

I can appreciate the Dussek suggestion and there are even hints of what is to come in Tomasek Op.18, Weber 1 and Steibelt 5, but to me, the first romantic concerto is Field 2.

Good suggestion re the Bowen 4 for the ur-concerto. Has just about everything.

Thal

[Alan Howe]

When you hear a performance like that I think it re-invigorates your enthusiasm and love for a work...

Absolutely right. My experience too...

[Gauk]

The problem is that 'ur-concerto' can only mean one thing, if language is to mean anything at all - and that is 'original concerto'. In German, Urfaust, for example, is the original version of Goethe's Faust

Clearly you mean something different, but I'm not sure what...

It's a metaphor. For what, see the original post.

[Alan Howe]

It isn't a metaphor - unless 'metaphor' has now changed meaning too. For example a metaphor in this context might be something such as: "The romantic piano concerto is a David and Goliath contest".

No, 'ur-concerto' was clearly your attempt to give a name to something that evidently exists in your mind; unfortunately the name you chose and what you were thinking of turn out to be two different things because 'ur-concerto', if words are to have any meaning, can only mean 'original concerto', which you say wasn't what you were thinking of. Hence the confusion.

Anyway, until we have a suggestion from you as to the sort of work you mean, with reasons, the confusion - with all due respect - will remain. Can you give it a go, please? After all, the thread's gone on for quite awhile now...

[eschiss1]

(You say ur-concerto, he hears errrr-concerto; let's call the whole thing off...)

[Alan Howe]

My feeling exactly. We're going nowhere fast.

[petershott@btinternet.com]

I'll throw in my lot with Eric - call a halt to the thing. Even if this quest for, an erm, ur-thing succeeds in hitting some target I doubt if that would have any significance. I'm also rather upset at seeing our very able administrator displaying considerable patience in a thread that's going nowhere but around in circles. Poor chap has rather better things to do!

[minacciosa]

über-concertos

What on earth's that? Do you mean 'ultimate romantic concerto'? If so, neither would be even close for me. It'd have to be....yes, you've guessed it: Rach 3. No contest. IMHO, of course.

Of course Rach 3 is great and I should have mentioned it, but it's not nearly as overtly Romantic as Marx and Bowen. It's the tunes and the harmony, both of which go beyond Rachmaninov in originality and lusciousness.

[Alan Howe]

I've never thought particularly highly of the Marx PC - it doesn't seem to me to have the ability to stir the late romantic soul as much as Rach PC3, but I take your point in terms of its idiom, which is certainly beyond Rachmaninov.

If we're still talking ultimate late-romantic PCs here, my two candidates would be the toothsome offerings by Karl Senn...
Score: http://www.musikland-tirol.at/html/html/musikedition/komponisten/senn/divpdfs/01Klavierkonzertopus22.pdf
CD available here: http://www.musikland-tirol.at/cdeditionen/cd-editionen-2011/klingende-kostbarkeiten.html
...and Thomas Schmidt-Kowalski:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Thomas-Schmidt-Kowalski-1949-2013-Klavierkonzert-g-moll-op-108/hnum/4982609

Both have a number of those 'cor!' moments that this sort of concerto should have.