Applause after a first movement

[kolaboy]

I think, Chris, that (to use your term) I'll happily throw in my lot with the old farts. I'd much prefer the conductor to be concentrating on the music, rather than judging when it would be appropriate for a bit of applause. The conductor should surely be ignoring the audience - not her or his job to whip up a bit of enthusiasm in the auditorium. And heavens just think of how some conductors (no names!) would relish the chance to do so. It has nothing to do with snobbery - but concerts are about the performance of music, not crowd control.

And what do you do in the case of, for example, a piano recital? Does the pianist leap from his stool, grin at the audience, and exclaim 'Come on, folks, bit of applause now.....louder!'.

Well said 

[ChrisDevonshireEllis]

Don't you feel, however, that the conductor may actually plan the decision whether to permit applause prior to the performance ahead of time? Read what I said properly please. You seem to suggest I'd like them to spontaenously burst into raptures and encourage us sitting in the seats to cheer on like Ra-Ra Girls with Pom-Poms. That's not what I suggested at all.

Applause is a matter of showing appreciation. It is never bad manners. Preventing other people from showing their appreciation however is the height of social pomposity. The issue is nothing to do with manners or even etiquette. It is to do with the most appropriate place, during a performance, in which to insert such appreciation. I would suggest that is not necessarily hard and fast for every single piece of classical music, and that the conductor should be the judge, not some old buffer sitting in row C14 who feels everyone should bend to his or her idea of social niceties.

Good Lord you'll be telling the Conductor what to wear next. And banning women from appearing on the stage again. Bring back Castratos we can't have these felamles singing in public. Times need to move on and adapt. And the best gauge of the appropriate guidance as concerns the public appreciation of a performance should be the conductor. After, all, he / or she is usually weaponized. "Applaud damn it or you'll feel the lash of my baton, Sir!"

[Alan Howe]

Applause is a matter of showing appreciation. It is never bad manners.

Not necessarily. This may be true for the majority of us who go to concerts, etc. for the right reasons. But at various times and in various places applause is/has not been an expression of appreciation, but some sort of narcissistic activity designed to draw attention not to the performers but to the audience members in question. When applause of this kind occurs it is the height of bad manners.

[arpeggio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsWuH0-Q8UU

This is rather amusing.

[Ilja]

Crowd control is not entirely unimportant when it comes to performing the unsungs, since the combination of being confronted by unknown works and the desire to show proper appreciation can be confusing.

Two years ago, I attended a performance of Braga Santos' Fourth symphony in Lisbon, and the general pause about five minutes before the end (at the beginning of the march that leads up to the coda) was misunderstood by some in the audience as the end of the piece (they were no doubt eager for interval refreshments), which created a somewhat awkward atmosphere. In the same year, Dmitri Kitaenko conducted the Berliner Philharmoniker in Scriabin's Third, and used a timpani roll to 'glue together' the three big orchestral 'blows' that end the piece - no doubt with the idea to prevent what happened in Lisbon.

[Mark Thomas]

I'm with Christopher to some degree on the question of the conductor properly holding back applause at the end of a piece until the moment he judges it to be appropriate. It seems to me to be entirely legitimate: silence is as important as noise in music and it's right that the conductor determines when the performance is actually over. Gergiev's practice of holding out his arm might be an extreme and rather aggressive/patronising example, but I have often seen conductors just maintaining their final stance after the music has ended to be enough to still audiences for a few vital seconds. As soon as the conductor relaxes, the applause begins. Of course many pieces, Mahler's Resurrection Symphony being an obvious example, just cry out for an immediate audience response and I'm sure that no conductor would attempt to hold it back.

[ChrisDevonshireEllis]

Thank you - as I suggested - whether to applause or not has the conductors discretion, not those of you frantically thumbing the old reference guide "Opera Etiquette for Aristocrats" (London, Pompous and Flatulent Publishing Ltd, 1917) for guidance.
I'm seeing "Moses in Egypt" at the Met on Tuesday; I may find it hard to suppress a loud and raucous cheer of relief when the babe is pulled from the bullrushes. Because otherwise there wouldn't be a story to tell at all. I'll let you know what happened. - Chris

[Alan Howe]

Next time we hear the shock of the new in the opening bars of Beethoven 5, we should all express our feelings in the pauses obviously provided for that purpose by the composer.

Not.

[eschiss1]

the word "judgment" comes to mind... (as does the expression "common sense and other oxymorons" Anyhow. Agreed.)

No, the next time we hear the shock of the new at the opening of Beethoven's 5th symphony, we should be glad we have heard the shock of the new in a piece we thought we knew so well.  Excepting the many to whom it is new, as everything is new to everyone for awhile, apologies for the banality... (they are not regular readers of this forum, at a guess.) (paragraph inserted (while Alan was responding, as it happens) on reflection.)

[Alan Howe]

Well said, Eric.
Not to mention self-control - a much derided virtue in our day - and consideration for others.

[ChrisDevonshireEllis]

And appreciation is not considered consideration for others. How bizzarre.
It's a debate about the concept of appreciation, gentlemen, not etiquette. They are rather different things.

[kolaboy]

Thank you - as I suggested - whether to applause or not has the conductors discretion, not those of you frantically thumbing the old reference guide "Opera Etiquette for Aristocrats" (London, Pompous and Flatulent Publishing Ltd, 1917) for guidance.
I'm seeing "Moses in Egypt" at the Met on Tuesday; I may find it hard to suppress a loud and raucous cheer of relief when the babe is pulled from the bullrushes. Because otherwise there wouldn't be a story to tell at all. I'll let you know what happened. - Chris

Geez, it's Sunday. Have a cuppa tea and relax. And feel free to applaud if it's a particularly nice cuppa tea.

[thalbergmad]

"Opera Etiquette for Aristocrats" (London, Pompous and Flatulent Publishing Ltd, 1917) for guidance.

It was 1916. Dashed bad form to get this wrong I must say.

Thal

[Alan Howe]

It's a debate about the concept of appreciation, gentlemen, not etiquette. They are rather different things.

It's not a debate about appreciation, but about the expression of appreciation, which is what applause is (or is supposed to be). The former (appreciation) can be a purely private affair, kept entirely to oneself. However, in public, its expression inevitably impinges upon other people - and that's where etiquette comes in...

[ChrisDevonshireEllis]

Well we're getting into so many split hairs now I think we all need a good soak of conditioner. I tell you what, if appreciation can be expressed within and doesn't need to be uttered, don't say "Thank you" any more when people give you a present, then explain your theory to them at that time. You'll be able to experience first hand what people think about that.

Meanwhile, I await the enlightened conductor who verbally encourages some applause - within the pieces of work that are appropriate -
and at the appropriate juncture within the performance. Otherwise, I will follow your suggested protocol but it rather depends upon where I am. I may boo at La Scala or clap during performances in Ulaan Baatar. In Convent Garden I shall keep quiet, although I remind you all that this is the same venue that diplayed a graphic oral sex scene when Anna Nicole in the opera of the same name goes down on her 90 year old lover and then wipes the semen off her mouth with a hankie. Not totally romantic, I must admit, but I certainly felt like giving a round of applause for the old buffer.

I must confess, I even let out a laugh at "Meistersingers" once, and a positive guffaw at the Met Premiere of "Elisir d'Amore" when the love potion is revealed to be cheap Bordeaux plonk. When I was younger I used to loudly boo the wicked witch in panto, and I can assure you it was the most delightful fun. Wagner's "Ring" could do with plenty of that, given all the nasty characters that show up.

I'll tell you what - I'll advise which performances I'll be at, including seat numbers, and if you happen to be planning on attending either please don't come or sit up in the Gods where you won't have to hear me chortle loudly and clap enthusiastically right next to your hearing aids. Other than that I'll be quiet. But some of you should lighten up a bit as well. "Music? Fun? Good God man whoever gave you that idea?" - Chris