Widor Symphony No.1

[Alan Howe]

In the 'Widor from Dutton' thread JollyRoger kindly provided a YouTube link to Widor's 1st Symphony...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAvhoJIF4LA
...and I must say it's another really fine piece. Once again, Widor manages to pack an enormous amount of interesting music into a short-ish span (24+ mins). Basically conservative in feeling and form, nevertheless, there is a sense of genuine pent-up passion in the slow movement and some really exciting writing for the orchestra throughout. I trust Dutton have this marvellous symphony in their sights too.

[eschiss1]

I don't find the first symphony (F minor, Op.16) as inspiring but haven't heard it in some time and hope to have my mind changed of course.  The full score is at IMSLP, by the way.

[Mark Thomas]

I do agree with Alan's comments about the Symphony No.1. A very worthwhile discovery and, to my ears at least, more reminiscent of Saint-Saëns than No.2. Before hearing these two works, I hadn't been very impressed with Widor's symphonic writing, my only exposure to it being the several (confusingly numbered and titled) symphonies for organ and orchestra which had been recorded over the years:

Symphony op.42 (1869 - arrangement of movements from an organ symphony).
Symphony No.3 op.69 (1894)
Sinfonia Sacre op.81 (1908)
Symphonie antique op. 83 (1911 with soloists and chorus)

These four works have always seemed turgid and uninteresting, but maybe that's the dominance of the organ in the interpretations now available?  It's quite a revelation to hear his first two, purely orchestral, symphonies. I wonder whether a livelier, non-organ focussed performance of these other four works would bring them to life?

[Gareth Vaughan]

I agree entirely, Mark.  I think these symphonies with organ do need a lighter (dare one say "more French") touch than they have hitherto received in order for them to work properly.  Otherwise the overall effect is rather muddy.  I'm not sure if it can be achieved, however, or if the fault is Widor's.

[Alan Howe]

I'm not sure. It just seems to me that the addition of the organ into the mix results in something much more turgid. My recent purchase of the symphonies with organ on cpo proved really disappointing - and I don't think it has anything to do with the performances. It seems that the attempt (maybe) to match Saint-Saens' 3rd was beyond him; conversely, his first two purely orchestral symphonies seem to me rather more successful than the older composer's early efforts in the genre, being rather more robust in character.

[Mark Thomas]

I must admit that I'm not very sanguine, myself. It isn't just the impression which current recordings give of muddy orchestration, moderate tempi and relatively cloying harmonies, it's the mundane melodic material which distinguish (if that's the right word) the symphonies with organ from their lively, spirited purely orchestral counterparts.

[Alan Howe]

Just to add: I decided to give No.3 (on cpo) a listen and the fact is that it is considerably more advanced work, harmonically speaking. What this translates into, though, is something altogether more difficult than Nos.1 and 2 - a piece, in other words, which takes a good deal more listening to. I plan to do precisely this over the next day or two - although I have to say that the various passages for organ solo in the work invariably add to the sense of drift. Nevertheless, I clearly haven't given the piece sufficient attention so far...

[Alan Howe]

As has often been my experience with other music in the past, repeated listening to Widor 3 has caused me to re-assess the piece. It is clearly a mistake to compare it with the two earlier and less adventurous works; indeed it is tempting to say that Widor's idiom has changed so much in the dozen or so years since the composition of No.2 that comparisons are pointless. What seems to account for the development in Widor's thinking is the appearance of Saint-Saëns' 3rd Symphony in 1886: Widor's own 3rd Symphony is clearly laid out in the same way, i.e. in two sections (first movement/slow movement; scherzo/finale) and seems to me to be an obvious attempt at emulation, albeit in Widor's own, more advanced idiom. The use of the organ, though, is quite different: whereas the organ in the Saint-Saëns is integrated into the overall orchestral palate, in the Widor the instrument is used more independently. All of which has led me to a much more positive view of the piece than I had before. On now to the Sinfonia sacra and Symphonie antique...

[chill319]

In the late nineteenth century it only took a decade or so for a progressive composer to become a conservative. Some years ago, no organist, I worked intensively with an organist on an urtext of Widor's organ symphonies. I'm actually rather ashamed of my role, that of the young Turk, in the project. What has stayed with me, though, is an appreciation for Widor as a composer who was able to bridge as few others of his time the strictures of the Conservatoire and the unfettered field of transcendent (God-given, Haydn would have said) creativity. He's worth spending time with. Coming back to.

[Alan Howe]

In the late nineteenth century it only took a decade or so for a progressive composer to become a conservative.

...or, in Widor's case, for a conservative younger man to become something of a progressive...

[JimL]

I have both of the first two symphonies for orchestra.  Absolutely delightful.  Widor gets a big sound out of extremely modest orchestral forces in the first, and expanded his coloristic palette considerably in the second.  He has an ear for graceful melody, although his tunes aren't quite as immediately "catchy" as those of Saint-Saëns.  I may go for the 3rd, if it's available.

[eschiss1]

the 3rd symphony in E minor Op.69, for organ and orchestra, has been recorded a few times, most recently I think on cpo. As Alan noted it's a somewhat later work, contemporary I think with such organ works as the Op.70 organ symphony "Gothique" (pub.1895, composed - ca.1895?);
(Op.69 was composed 1893, published 1897.)

[dmitterd]

Can anyone provide information on a commercially available recording of Widor's First Symphony for orchestra? I am unaware of the existence of one.

cheers,
Daniel

[eschiss1]

So am I. I know only of a radio broadcast.

[Alan Howe]

Can anyone provide information on a commercially available recording of Widor's First Symphony for orchestra? I am unaware of the existence of one.

There isn't one, I'm afraid.