Admitting the Unsung to the Pantheon...

[Alan Howe]

Apologies, Mark. It's probably my fault for attempting the impossible in this thread, so I agree: time to draw a veil, maybe...

[giles.enders]

I would nominate Granville Bantock, with thanks to Hyperion and Dutton who have helped to make his music more widely known.
There has also been some more recent interest in Rued Langgard, with a symphony of his played at last years proms.  All of his symphonies have now been recorded and also his piano concerto.
Cyril Scott has recently come to the fore with numerous recordings of his compositions.
Anton Arensky has had most of his compositions recorded except perhaps the operas and is occasionally performed live.
Sergei Taneyev is also emerging from obscurity with an increasing number of recordings and live performances of his chamber music

[khorovod]

Quote from Gauk Today at 19:20
<<but what elevates both Mahler and Wagner to the first rank is their originality, and the profundity with which they explore the human soul through music, something which, frankly, you won't find in Raff>>

Ah, but why should this be the sole criterion by which composers are admitted to the pantheon? The more classically-minded composers (more interested, perhaps, in form than pure self-expression) offer satisfaction of a less visceral, more intellectual kind. I derive as much pleasure from the terseness, elegance and form-consciousness of, for example, Raff 4 as I do from anything by Wagner or Mahler. So, I'm in fundamental disagreement with your premise, I'm afraid.

I don't know if I've come to this too late but I just wanted to add I reckon there's two ideas of the pantheon running in parallel here, ie are there Unsung composers whose music is worthy to be added to the repertoire and are there Unsung composers who are "equal" to the "Greats"? For my two cents I don't think it matters if the composer limited himself to one or two types of music (Wagner, Mahler) , it is what they did in those fields, are they original, did they change the course of music, did they influence other composers in signifcant ways as well as their emotional value or aesthetic beauty, which are both very subjective? So I think Wagner and Mahler are great in all those ways and I hope noone is suggesting that there incredibly complex music lacks some sort of intellectual weight to balance against the expressive visceralness, as that strikes me as completely unfounded.
I love Raff's symphonies and have collected many recordinsg including the Tudor set and I agree with Alan about Raff 4 totally. I think it was through Raff that I ended up here. But I don't know that I think fastidious craftsmanship is enough to make Raff for instance qualified to join the "Greats" when maybe a work like Raff 4 doesn't have that groundbreaking originality and influence. But I  think it could be enough to make him join the roster of composers who are performed regularly. I was trying to separate the two threads here but I'm not sure if I have really expressed myself as well as I could... 
I wondered too, just reading above, about Berger being one of the Unsungs that we now know a lot more of his music as I hadn't heard of him or don't remember hearing of him before but I can only find one recording of his quintet, is there more out there that joe public could find?

[petershott@btinternet.com]

I fear, Khorovod, that you're entirely right (cf your footnote about Berger). There almost seems a conspiracy intent on not recording Berger. The Piano Quintet to which you refer is indeed a fine and lovely work.

But the only other Berger (Wilhelm Reinhard, that is, distinct from other Bergers) I've ever come across are:

Op. 69 String Trio in G minor (c/w a String Trio by Ernst Naumann on a Querstand CD), and

Op. 94 Trio for Clarinet, Cello & Piano (in a Tacet CD 'In the Shadow of Brahms' Vol. 2)

I'd certainly welcome more recordings of Berger!

[Alan Howe]

Non-commercial recordings of Berger have also included his Symphony No.2, Violin Sonata No.3 and the String Quintet. Then there's a long-deleted recording on Koch of the Variations and Fugue and the Serenade, so it is possible to discern more of his stature.

I haven't tried looking at the Downloads sections here to see whether any of the works mentioned above are still available, but it's certainly worth trying to find them...

[eschiss1]

Wilhelm Berger's piano quintet was recorded on MDG 19 years ago. (Musikproduktion Hoflich republished the score 3 years ago, which I think may be at IMSLP also.) I still remember the Fanfare review being very positive but haven't heard the work. What I have heard by him I like very much indeed... (If the somewhat-Romantic Myaskovsky were to be still better known I of course wouldn't mind.)
(There was another(?) recording of that Op.94 Berger trio on a Fono LP- ca.1980?)

[Gauk]

If I can make an analogy ...

For anyone who appreciates wine, to say that a lambrusco is just as good as a fine bordeaux because it's all a matter of personal taste, is simply absurd. A good bordeaux is objectively a better wine because it has qualities of complexity that a lambrusco does not have; and this is reflected in the price, which (leaving aside inflation due to snob value), is a reasonably objective measure.

On the other hand, there are occasions when a chilled lambrusco is just what you fancy. It still isn't better wine, but there is nothing wrong with enjoying something inferior when it happens to suit the occasion. A master at my school once advanced the opinion that someone who enjoyed great literature and football was happier than someone who enjoyed great literature but not football. Two sources of pleasure are better than one.

[Alan Howe]

For anyone who appreciates wine, to say that a lambrusco is just as good as a fine bordeaux because it's all a matter of personal taste, is simply absurd.

Trouble is, if what you're saying is Wagner/Mahler = fine Bordeaux, whereas Raff = Lambrusco, then I demur. Raff, you see, may be an equally fine Chablis...

[Gauk]

I'm not. I'm simply saying that assessment of quality is not simply the subjective "what I like = good".

[Alan Howe]

No-one would dispute that. But if there's such a thing as fine wine (in all its many varieties), the implication is that there must also be such a thing as great music and that it must also take many different forms.

[petershott@btinternet.com]

Dunno about all this wine business. The very opposite of 'complex' I suppose, but to my taste one of the most rewarding drinks is a nice cool glass of mineral water. And when I was at school I was at my happiest when it rained and we weren't shoved out on to a muddy field to pursue a cold, wet and sticky ball and where wretched fools shouted about the importance of supporting the house. Absurd business I thought.

Moral: analogies aren't terribly helpful things! But I do agree that great / good music isn't stuff that one merely 'likes'. On the contrary musical appreciation and exercising discrimination are things that one has to work hard at over a number of years, and yes, by making reasoned judgments it is possible to make statements having some objective validity on a composer's works. (But, heigh ho, someone will tell me the same is true of glug that gurgles out of bottles.)

[Alan Howe]

I think you have a point, Peter. Experience of a wide range of music pursued over a long period of time certainly aids in the development of musical judgment that is more than the mere expression of personal preference.

[Gauk]

Dunno about all this wine business. The very opposite of 'complex' I suppose, but to my taste one of the most rewarding drinks is a nice cool glass of mineral water.

What I said. It is refreshing, but simple, and not to be compared to something with depth, complexity and subtlety. And no-one in their right mind is going to fork out collector's prices for a bottle of mineral water.

The analogy is more meaningful for those with experience of wine appreciation, as I did say.

[petershott@btinternet.com]

I suspect, Gauk, respected fellow scribbler, we are in agreement over the substance of the issue but not over your particular analogy. I certainly wouldn't devote precious pennies amounting to 'collector's prices' for a bottle of plonk whatever its depth, complexity and subtlety when those funds could be devoted to concert going. The former - and a purely personal view - is a real mug's game. But maybe we should agree to disagree before moderators come to duff up both of us for wasting people's time!

[Alan Howe]

I suspect this thread has run its course anyway...