Goldmark Symphonies 1 & 2 from BIS

[Alan Howe]

Not exactly unrecorded repertoire, but this combination of orchestra, conductor and label has been winning plaudits in other repertoire recently:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Karl-Goldmark-1830-1915-Symphonien-Nr-1-L%E4ndliche-Hochzeit-Nr-2/hnum/1765525

[Mark Thomas]

Goldmark's Rustic Wedding Symphony is the perfect example of an old warhorse put out to grass. Good to see this coupling, though.

[mbhaub]

This is great news indeed! Why the Rustic Wedding is so neglected is something I don't understand, after all, Previn, Bernstein, Beecham had it in their repertoires and recorded it. Why did it fall by the wayside? But then that's a question we've all been asking for years...

The third movement of the 2nd has a slower theme in the middle that may not be a Austrian folk song but it sure sounds like one - and it's one of the most beguiling, beautiful themes in the whole repertoire as far as I'm concerned. Right up there with the big tune from the overture to The Wasps.

So the recording is with unfamiliar orchestra and conductor. I'll still take it. Love Goldmark.

[petershott@btinternet.com]

I'm not (alas) in the position of being able to make deals with BIS. But if I was, I'd agreed to buy this CD if BIS undertook to record some of the other orchestral works. Goldmark wrote a number of concert overtures, symphonic poems etc, some of which are used as 'fillers' on discs of the symphonies or violin concerto. From what I've heard / read they seem rather good, but there are some which haven't been recorded. (Perhaps they're not all that good?)

There is, apparently, a second violin concerto but it was never published. Anyone know whether it ever gets performed?

Fortunately the chamber music and works for solo piano are pretty well represented. I'm full of praise for Goldmark's two Piano Quintets.

Would be really interesting to hear the operas besides Merlin and The Queen of Sheba. But that is probably like wishing for the moon, and anyway quite beyond the resources of BIS.

[eschiss1]

The 2nd violin concerto? You're more certain than I am that it ever even existed, or still does. As to whether it gets performed, almost certainly not. I know that people here and elsewhere have been asking after it for two decades straight; those questions would reduce to a trickle (one assumes; one hopes; well... maybe not, given how often one has to repeat oneself sometimes, true...) after a few such performances established its existence.

[Alan Howe]

VC2? Not that old chestnut again. All we have is speculation, so let's not go down that road again, please.

[FBerwald]

I must put in a word here! I agree with Alan about the speculation angle but lets not forget that until we have some sort of proof we can't write off a piece as lost altogether. Look at Moszkowski's early Piano Concert [B minor?] A few years ago we could have argued that it was speculaion, a wrong wiki entry, Grove entry, etc.... but the manuscript was eventually found [even one of the symphonies also I believe!]. The more recent case of Stojowski's 3rd Piano Concerto which, it turned out never existed, was a result of many inquiries from many members.
 
The problem with Goldmark seems to be that there isn't a Goldmark specialist [for lack of a better term] amongst us. His catalog is incomplete. Let's answer some major question first like where are his manuscripts held? Are there any members here or elsewhere who has researched Goldmark. The existence of the 2nc concerto however speculative is interesting. Let's not write it of completely; instead ask some constructive question which might lead to some answers.

[PS: Old Grove is notorious for wrong entries! I once found a Violin Concerto in A Major by Glazunov, in addition to the well known A minor one!  ]

[Mark Thomas]

Peter, in the Download Archive board here there are radio broadcasts of four of Goldmark's smaller orchestral works: the Overture to the Opera: Merlin (1886), the Sappho Overture op.44 (1893), the Overture to the Opera: Ein Wintermärchen (A Winter's Tale) (1907) and the Overture: Aus Jugendtagen (From Youth) op.53 (1913), together with his Ballade for Violin & Orchestra op.54 (1913). Not fabulous recordings, but good enough to get to know the music.

As for the Second Violin Concerto, what evidence is there that it ever existed? Are there letters from Goldmark or his contemporaries, are there newspaper reviews of its performance? I'm all for not writing something off as irretrievably lost if we are sure, or at least there is a shred of evidence, that it ever existed, but is that the case with Goldmark's Second Violin Concerto? It would be interesting to know what the earliest mention is of it.

[petershott@btinternet.com]

Thanks Mark. I'll put an ear to those works in the Archives. (However my plea to BIS or whoever remains - in the ideal world we could do with good recordings of the orchestral works other than the symphonies).

Apologies to all for cluttering up the ether with talk of that alleged 2nd Vn Cte. (I should have trawled around earlier posts before blurting out). However I plead some innocence: Wiki mentions it, and in the New Grove of 1980 there's an entry that reads: "? Vn Conc. no 2". But your very last sentence, "It would be interesting to know what the earliest mention is of it", is an especially interesting one surely? OK, it is a question not about Goldmark or his music, but about those who compile catalogues or initiate rumours - but nonetheless an interesting question.

I do fully acknowledge FBerwald's point: a sensible person is one who is conscious that all claims are fallible and should be alert to new evidence. However on reflection I doubt if there is much reason to suppose there is such a work. For example, Hungaroton is a company quite renowned for research and scholarship. Their catalogue seems to contain recordings of just about every work of Goldmark, and had there been such a work I'm sure they would have pursued it.

So, yep, I'm happy that the old chestnut is laid to rest. But a last lingering question: what of the other four operas besides Merlin and Die Konigin von Saba? Prima facie it is odd that these are the first two operas Goldmark composed and we don't hear the later ones. Die Kreigsgefangene (1889) appears a particularly interesting one, as does Ein Wintermarchen (1908). Grove claims it "can be considered significant as a post-Wagner fairy-tale opera". That whets my appetite!

[Alan Howe]

Grove online also has: "? Vn Conc. no.2". Grove 4 (pub. 1948) contains this mysterious entry at the end of Goldmark's works list: "Without opus numbers: ....and a second violin concerto", so these dictionary entries have been around for a while, obviously without any form of explanation. It could be a case of Chinese whispers, of course; in any case, I'm inclined to think that, if the work hasn't emerged in the past 65 years, then it probably never will. So, as I said before, unless there is some concrete information, let's not repeat the same debate that we've had before.

By far the best approach here is for someone among us to do some research him/herself and then report back. Any volunteers?

[Mark Thomas]

I'm not volunteering, but I have done a quick check of several musical dictionaries I have dating from the early 1900s and, although a Violin Concerto is mentioned in them all, there's no mention of a second one. I wonder if, after Goldmark died, some musicologist or dictionary compiler read about the Ballade, which is quite a late work (1913), and thought it a reference to a full-blown concerto? Wouldn't be the first time.

[mbhaub]

A quick check at the Fleisher library in Philadelphia and the Austrian National Library turn up nothing: only the violin concerto op 28 is listed in either source.

[eschiss1]

I'm thinking the National Széchényi Library catalogue might be the place to check for things Goldmark speaking generally - putting any putative 2nd violin concerto aside- but I may be wrong. They do seem to list 169 recordings and scores and books etc. under "Goldmark" (not all applying to Goldmark Károly, I'm sure. Still, no.4 is the autograph score of the 2nd symphony it seems? --

Zweite Symphonie für Grosses Orch. [zenemű kézirat] : Op.35 : partitúra : G 25 : autográf

So maybe this partially answers the question above about where Goldmark's manuscripts are- some of them are in that library.

[eschiss1]

hrm. They also have the autograph of the 1st violin concerto - or an earlier 0th concerto - I'm not sure. (The brief entry says

Conzert F violine mit orcht. [zenemű kézirat] : partitúra : G 19 : autográf / Goldmark Károly.

I assume F is brief for "für", but I don't know what "G 19" is in Goldmark's catalogue, so maybe this is actually an earlier work in F major that's only available in autograph manuscript - in which case it really is a find. I doubt it and suspect this is the autograph of the A minor. )

[Alan Howe]

Perhaps an email to Budapest might be the best way forward? By the way, Eric, I can't make your link work.