Karl (1812-1883) and Hermann (1844-1929) Graedener

[Santo Neuenwelt]

Bit of late reply, but for what it is worth, we played the Bruch Octet with a bass. We played at a high school and there was a bass available. Our second cellist, a string teacher is an all rounder, plays the violin, viola, cello and bass. Bass is his second instrument, cello. He played the bass for the Bruch.

Anyway, the criticism really had nothing to do with whether there were 2 cellos or cello and bass. There is just one heck of a lot, a real lot, of sawing, unnecessary repetition (without taking taking any repeats).

[Double-A]

Finally the typeset score of Carl Grädener's octet is finished.  For the time being it can be found here.  It will be posted on IMSLP together with a set of parts when they are ready.

There is a computer generated soundtrack, so you can listen to it.  It is not very good, the balance is often unsatisfactory (I tried to some degree to fix this, but the success is modest).  Also there is a rather annoying vibrato.  Nevertheless you can imagine how the piece will sound as you read the score while listening.

I will post some thoughts  on the piece later.

[matesic]

That's a heroic piece of type-setting. I'm sure the catalogue can accommodate more octets of this type, although unfortunately I can't say I found Carl's music to be on the same level as Hermann's. It does seem as if melodic inspiration deserted him sometimes, particularly in the Adagio, and most of the time the part-writing seems essentially orchestral.

It's great to be able to make these judgments on the basis of what we hear rather than what we see but (as we discussed in another thread) synthesized string-instrument sounds still have a long way to go before even modest players are put out of business. Another annoying "feature" I notice is that each bowed note takes a finite time to build, such that rapid semiquaver passages hardly have time to register at all. Pizzicatos, on the other hand feel like a smack in the eye!

[Double-A]

Some of these disadvantages could be managed.  E.g. the pizzicati could be made softer (they are among other things just too loud compared to arco, most notably in the adagio right at the beginning) by adding the info to the score.  Of course the tone does take its time to build on real violins as well and without imitating that you'd never get the feeling of strings I guess.  But something is wrong there.  Maybe if one could stop the vibrato for faster passages...
Anyhow I decided to post it as is and let people put up with it.

[Double-A]

Here my description (judgement?) of the Carl Grädener octet (I am spelling Grädener's name as it is spelled on the old octet edition that was my source).

On the whole I agree with Matesic; it is not the most inspired of the available works for eight strings.  But I also have to admit that as I worked on it it grew on me and I don't think rehearsing it would be boredom.  It is true that there is little memorable melodic invention but I am not sure that memorable melodies are the hallmark of a masterpiece, especially in large multi movement works like this one.  The music in this octet moves forward primarily by rhythm, harmony and counterpoint.  It is also true that it is "orchestral" (more orchestral than the Mendelssohn at any rate, and BTW how many great melodies are in the Mendelssohn?), but this results in some interesting use of the ensemble such as:  The lower four instruments as a group are contrasted by the four violins, e.g. in the adagio.  I have no doubt that--in a good ensemble--some very gorgeous sound would emerge.

The first movement--Allegro risoluto ma non troppo presto--in sonata form begins with a fortepiano accent in quavers in fifths--no third.  Only when the main motif appears--a rising E flat Major triad (conscious reference to Mendelssohn?) in semiquavers--is the main key fully established.  The contrasting second theme is also rather unmelodic and repetitive but is taken through some lovely, somewhat Dvorak-ish chord progressions.  As the movement progresses rhythmic complexity is increased by the addition of triplet quavers as well as triplet crotchets such that the end is reached in increased density and tension. 

The "Adagio molto" mustn't be played too slowly and I wonder why Grädener didn't write it down in cut time (and why "molto").  It is in A B A' form, the A (B Major) part based on a motif consisting of repeated notes of the same pitch.  The B part (a minor) adds semiquaver sextuplets to the pattern and has a triadic melody (such as it is).  When the opening motif reappears the transition to A' is underway.  A' is enriched by the sextuplets from the B part.  Interesting detail:  Like in Hermann's octet the cello is asked to tune the C string down to B during this movement, though only for the last chord.  Coincidence?

The scherzo (E flat again) starts out sounding like a passacaglia over an eight measure theme presented twice in different instrumentations before a scale derived melody is combined with it .  Later on the "passacaglia theme" keeps appearing in snippets (as a rhythmic backdrop) while the melody is developed a bit.  At the end of the scherzo the opening theme appears played backward.  Two trios are interspersed; the first being the more interesting:  The upper instruments move up and down chords while the lower instruments move through the same chords in countermotion.  The second trio is in 2/4 (measure = measure) and is essentially a not all that exciting chord progression.  This movement to me is the least interesting.  If I had to perform it I'd cut the second trio.

The last movement--Allegro con fuoco ma non troppo (Mendelssohn first movement:  Allegro moderato ma con fuoco)--opens with runs up the E flat scale which constitute a short introduction.  The first subject is a fugue on a theme that might be from much earlier times.  The second subject features a small alteration to this theme, contrasted with a counter-theme, a lovely melody (the loveliest by far in this work anyway), still worked out in fugal writing.  Indeed the whole movement is so dominated by fugal writing that I'd call it a sonata fugue form (again reference to Mendelssohn whose last movement also has fugue elements in it?).  The introductory scale runs appear again at the end of the exposition and, somewhat extended, serve as the coda to the whole work, a sort of signposts along the way through the movement.  This I'd think is the most exciting of the four movements--though the fuoco is indeed non troppo.

I yielded to the temptation of quoting the title and the instrument names in the original German exactly as they are on the source, mainly because I love the (not so very) German word "Bratsche".  It sounds so exactly like a viola...

[Double-A]

After time consuming formatting and correction exercises the score and parts are finally up on Musescore.

[Mark Thomas]

Maybe it'll further discussion of these two interesting composers to add a work list for the younger Grädener, who might be the more interesting and musically substantial, judging by Matesic's recordings of the String Octet and String Quartet No.2:

Hermann Grädener (1844-1929)

Hermann was born in Kiel, Germany, but spent all his professional life in Vienna, where he was one of Brahms' circle. He received his initial musical education from his father Karl before studying at the Vienna Conservatory with Hellmesberger. In 1862 he became organist at the city's Lutheran Church, and in 1864 became a violinist in the court orchestra. He joined the Horak Piano School as a teacher of harmony in 1873 and four years later moved to the Vienna Conservatory to teach music theory, becoming a professor there in 1882. Between 1892 and 1896 he was director of the Vienna Singakademie, and from 1899 he also taught harmony, theory and counterpoint at Vienna University. He retired in 1913. As well as teaching and composition, Hermann Grädener was an accomplished conductor.

Work List

Choral & Dramatic Works:
Op.40 The Minstrel [Der Spielmann] Rhapsody for mixed choir, violin and orchestra  (1904)
Op.51 Our Father, 1914 [Vater unser 1914]. Hymn for 4-voice women's choir, 4-voice men's choir & orchestra (ms)
WoO The Recruits [Der Geworbene] for male choir (WWI)
WoO Opera: Richter von Zalamea
WoO Oratorio: The Blessed Zita [Die heilige Zita]
WoO Wittenberg. Ballad for soloists, choir and orchestra)
WoO The Maid at the Lake [Das Mädchen am See] for 3-voicewomen's choir & piano (ms)

Orchestral Works:
Op.4 Capriccio in F major for orchestra (1872 - 10 mins)
Op.14 Sinfonietta for orchestra (1881 - 25 mins)
    I. Allegro II. Scherzo: Molto allegro III. Andante IV. Finale: Molto vivo
WoO Variations for organ, string instruments & trumpet (1898)
Op.20 Piano Concerto in D minor (1914 - 23 mins)
    I. Allegro moderato II. Adagio ma non troppo III. Finale: Rondo
Op.21 Symphony No.1 in B minor (1914)
WoO Symphony No.2 in C minor (1912 - 56 mins)
    I. Allegro un poco maestoso II. Adagio non troppo III. Scherzo IV. Finale
Op.22 Violin Concerto No.1 in D major (1905)
Op.28 A Comedy Overture [Eine Lustspiel-Ouvertüre] for orchestra (1886)
Op.41 Violin Concerto No.2 in D minor (1914 - 30 mins)
    I. Allegro non troppo II. Andante III. Finale: Rondo capricioso
Op.45 Cello Concerto in E minor (1908)
    Allegro moderato — Adagio molto — Allegro moderato — Allegro
Op.47 Cello Concerto No.2 in B minor (1914 - 20 mins)
    I. Allegro moderato II. Adagio III. Finale: Rondo

Chamber Works:
Op.1 Piano Trio No.1 in F (1867)
    I. Allegro II. - III. Andante IV. Finale: Allegro non troppo
Op.6 Piano Quintet No.1 in D major (1872)
    I. Allegro moderato II. Scherzo: Molto vivace III. Andante 
    IV. Intermezzo: Allegro V. Finale: Allegro
Op.11 Five Impromptus for piano trio (1880)
Op.12 Octet for strings in C major (1881 - 47 mins)
    I. Allegro moderato II. Allegro non troppo III. Lento 
    IV. Finale: Allegro non troppo, ma con fuoco
Op.19 Piano Quintet No.2 in C minor (1889)
    I. Allegro moderato II. Scherzo: Allegro molto III. Adagio IV. Finale: Allegro
Op.23 String Quintet in C major (1883)
Op.25 Piano Trio No. 2 in D minor (1893)
    I. Allegro II. Scherzo: Allegro III. Adagio IV. Finale: Allegro con fuoco
Op.33 String Quartet No.1 in D minor (1898)
    I. Allegro con brio II. Adagio in Balladenton: Adagio non troppo
    III. Scherzo: Allegro molto IV. Finale: Rondo. Allegretto moderato
Op.35 Violin Sonata in C minor (1905)
Op.39 String Quartet No.2 in D major (1905 - 31 mins)
    I. Non troppo allegro, risoluto ed energico II. Andante
    III. Allegro IV. Allegro energico ed un poco agitato
WoO Lento - Allegro for 2 violins
WoO String Quartet Movement in G minor G-Moll (ms)

Songs:
Op.7 Five Duets for soprano & tenor with piano
Op.8 Four Lieder for tenor (or soprano) & piano (1876)
Op.9 Five Intermezzi for violin & piano (1881)
Op.10 Seven Lieder for alto & piano (1880)
Op.15 Six Lieder for tenor (or soprano) and piano (1881)
Op.17 Six Lieder for Tenor-Baritone (or mezzo-soprano) & piano (1886)
Op.26 The Three Gypsies [Die drei Zigeuner] for baritone & piano (1892)
Op.27 Five Lieder for voice & piano (1888)
Op.29 The Wandering Musician [Der wandernde Musikant] for voice & paino (1891)
Op.30 Four songs for middle voice & piano (1892)
WoO Silent Love [Stille Liebe] for voice & piano (1899)
Op.34 Five Lieder for high voice & piano
Op.37 Four Lieder for high voice & piano (1904)
Op.38 Four Lieder for middle voice & piano (1904)
WoO Four Lieder & Poems by Anna Ritter (1905)
WoO Let's Scrape Your Horse's Hoof [Lass scharren deiner Rosse Huf] for voice & piano (1908)
WoO Five Lieder for voice & piano (1911)
Op.44 Six Lieder for a lower voice and piano (1914)
WoO Vow [Gelübde] for voice & piano (1914)
WoO Twelve Lieder for voice & piano (1920)
WoO The Invalids' Thanks to the Emperor [Des Invaliden Dank an den Kaiser] for voice & piano (WWI)
WoO From the Hunting Bag [Vom Jagdtasche] for voice & piano (ms)
WoO The Leaf of the Fower [Das Blatt der Blume] for voice & piano (ms)
WoO A Call Was Made From the Mountain [Vom Berg ergeht ein Rufen]. Duet for soprano and alto (or baritone) & piano (ms)
WoO Lied: Now, Ferryman [Nun Fährmann] for voice & piano (ms)
WoO Remembrance [Erinnerung]. Duet for mezzo-soprano, baritone & piano (ms)

Works for piano:
Op.2.Three Impromptus for piano four-hands (1868)
Op.3 Four Impromptus for piano four-hands (1869)
Op.5 Voices [Stimmungen] Six piano pieces (1871)
Op.18 Sonata for Two Pianos in D minor (1882)
    I. Allegro moderato II. Non troppo lento III. Finale: Allegro molto

Notes:
Unidentified Opus nos: Opp.13, 16, 24, 31, 32, 36, 42, 43 & 46-50.
Sources: HMB, Worldcat, IMSLP, SBB, ONB, RISM, Fleisher.
Dates: are generally those of publication, sometimes of performance, but not of composition.
Work durations: are from Matesic's recordings or estimates given in the Fleisher Collection catalogue.
The English Wikipedia page mentions two Piano Concertos, but this seems to be a mistake.

[eschiss1]

The Library of Congress may have a few of the rarer full scores (2nd cello concerto, 2nd symphony...).
The Austrian National Library does have them (though not the first?) as well as a caveat that some works they list as by Hermann Grädener are by a more recent creative artist (an author and playwright I think, died 1956.)

[Gareth Vaughan]

Fleisher has complete performance material for 13 pieces, including, among orchestral works, the 2 you mention, Eric, plus IIRC the 2nd VC, Capriccio, Sinfonietta and the PC.

[eschiss1]

As I recall ÖNB seems to have those (how much and in what forms, how available and to whom, I'm not positive) too- but redundancy is good; better multiple libraries should have something than only one.  I wonder if anyone has material for the first symphony?
Off top of, etc., I'm going to guess ÖNB has some stuff for Karl too...

[Gareth Vaughan]

According to WorldCat a Study Score (143 pages) of the Erste Sinfonie in h-moll is held in the Harriet M. Spaulding Library at the New England Conservatory of Music. That's all I can find.

[Mark Thomas]

To round out the catalogues of the Grädeners père et fils, here's a work list for Hermann's father Karl (or Carl). On the face of it, he majored in chamber music, songs and piano works, but there's a mystery: he may well have written several major works which were unpublished, and of which I can't seem to trace any evidence online except for a summary of his oeuvre published in 1882 to celebrate his 70th birthday - see the bottom of this post. So, for now...

Karl (Georg Peter) Grädener (1812-1883)

Grädener  was born in Rostock and grew up in Altona (near Hamburg) and Lübeck. He began studying law in Halle and Göttingen before turning to music. Between 1835 and 1838 he lived in Helsinki as a cellist before returning to Germany as a composer and conductor in Kiel and music director of the city's university. Political problems caused his dismissal and he moved to Hamburg as a private music teacher and concert organiser, where in 1851 he founded a Singakademie which he headed until 1861. From 1862 to 1865 he taught voice and music theory at the conservatory in Vienna, but he returned to Hamburg and from 1873 until his death he taught at the Hamburg Conservatory.

Work List

Orchestral Works:
Op.20 Piano Concerto in A minor (1869)
Op.25 Symphony in C minor (1872)
Op.30 Overture in G major to Schiller's Fiesco for orchestra (1873)
    Langsam — Rasch — Festes Tempo — Schneller — Langsamer und sehr ruhig
Op.36 Duet of the Elves, a Night-Piece [Zwiegesang der Elfen. Ein Nachtstück] for soloists,
    six-part choir & small orchestra (1858)
Op.53 Romance in E major for violin & small orchestra (1868)
    Adagio sostenuto

A Capella Choral Works:
Op.8 Eight four-part Lieder for mixed choir (or solo quartet) a capella (1853)
Op.38a Three Marian Lieder for four-part womens' choir (2 soprano & 2 alto) a capella (1871)
WoO Acclaimed, He Begins Life [Gefeiert tritt er in das Leben] for men's choir  (1880)
WoO Two Drinking Songs [Trinklieder] for men's choir (1880)
WoO Drinking Song [Trinklied]: The Emperor Octavian [Der Kaiser Octavianus]
    for men's choir (1880)

Chamber Works:
Op.7 Piano Quintet No.1 in G minor (1852)
    I. Allegro  II. Andante cantabile e molto sostenuto
    III. Scherzo: Molto vivace e con leggerezza  IV. Allegro molto
Op.11 Violin Sonata in D major (1853)
Op.12 String Quartet No.1 in B flat major (1861)
    I. Molto allegro  II. Menuetto scherzando  III. Adagio molto cantabile e sostenuto
    IV. Finale: Allegro vivace
Op.17 String Quartet No.2 in A minor (1861)
    I. Allegro - Lento, quasi Recitativo — II. Andante non troppo lento, quasi Allegretto
    III. Presto  IV. Finale: Allegro assai
Op.22 Piano Trio No.1 in E major (1857)
    I. Presto - Allegro molto  II. Larghetto molto lento più tosto Adagio
    III. Allegro risoluto quasi Presto
Op.29 String Quartet No.3 in E flat major (1861 - 33 mins)
    I. Introduzione: Lento molto e cantabile - Allegro di molto  II. Largo molto ed
    espressivo  III. Scherzo. Molto Allegro quasi Presto - Presto furioso, ma non troppo 
    IV. Finale: Lento - Allegro - Lento molto - Allegro vivace
Op.35 Piano Trio No.2 in E flat major (1860)
    I. Allegro  II. Andante mosso (alla Marcia)
Op.41 Two Small Violin Sonatas in Lighter Style
    No.1 in B flat major: I Mässig schnell  II. Allegretto  III. Rondoletto: Zeimlich rasch
    No.2 in D major: I. Schnell, leicht II. Scherzino: Leicht, schnell
    III. Andantino. Nach Behagen  IV. Rondino: Ziemlich rasch
Op.48 String Trio in G major (1864 - arranged for piano four-hands 1881)
    I. Lento - Allegro molto moderato  II. Minuetto: Un poco vivace
    III. Adagio  IV. Finale: Allegro vivace, ma non troppo
Op.49 Octet for strings in E flat major (1870 - 34 mins)
    I. Allegro risoluto ma non troppo presto  II. Adagio molto
    III. Scherzo: Allegro  IV. Finale: Allegro con fuoco, ma non troppo
Op.57 Piano Quintet No.2 in C sharp minor (1872)
    I. Allegro moderato II. Adagio molto  III. Menuetto scherzando
    IV. Rondo finale: Allegro moderato ma energico, quasi Marcia
Op.59 Cello Sonata in C major (1873)
    I. Adagio molto - Allegro  II. Molto adagio III. Allegro finale con brio
Op.61 String Quartet No.4 in F major (ms)
    I. Allegro  II. Andante molto sostenuto
    III. Scherzo & Trio: Molto vivace  IV. Allegro

Songs:
Op.4 Four Lieder for voice & piano (1850)
Op.6 Four Lieder for voice & piano (1849)
Op.9 Five Cheerful [heitere] Lieder by R. Reinick for voice & piano (1856)
Op.13 Six Lieder for voice & piano (1851)
Op.15 Five Hebrew Melodies [Hebräische Gesänge] by Lord Byron for one or
    two women's voices and piano (1852)
Op.18 Sounds of Autumn [Herbstklänge]. Seven Lieder for low voice & piano (1857)
Op.19 Forest Magic [Waldeszauber]. Quiet Joy [Stille Freude]. Sounds of Resurrection
    [Auferstehungsklänge]  A Lieder-Cycle for soprano, alto, tenor & bass (1853)
Op.23. Six German Lieder for voice & piano (1856, 1867)
Op.26 Four Lieder for voice & piano (1870)
Op.32 Four Love Songs [Liebeslieder] for soprano and tenor with (1867)
Op.34 Four German Lieder for voice & piano
Op.39. Poor Peter [Der arme Peter]: Three lieder & Song of the Prisoners
    [Lied des Gefangenen] by  H. Heine for 6 or 5 women's voices (1871)
Op.44 Ten Travelling & Wandering Lieder by W. Müller for middle voice & piano (1863)
Op.45 Six Lieder by J von Eichendorff for  two voices (soprano & alto) with piano (1863)
Op.46 Five Sacred [geisliche] Lieder. Offertory [Offertorien] for middle voice
    and harmonium (or organ) (1871)
Op.50 Sounds of Autumn [Herbstklänge]. Seven Lieder for middle voice & piano (1867)
Op.56 Five Love Songs [Liebeslieder] for voice & piano (1871)
Op.60 Werner's Lieder from Welschland (France & Italy) from Scheffel's Trompeter
    von Säkkingen for lower voice & piano. 11 nos. (1873)
Op.63 Three Rhapsodic Songs [rhapsodische Gesänge] for baritone (or low soprano) and piano
Op.65 Youth's Dream [Jugendtraume]. Seven Lieder by Rückert for middle voice & piano (1878)
Op.66 Six Lieder by Hermann Kletke for middle voice & piano (1878)
Op.67 Four Duets by Hermann Kletke for two sopranos with piano (1879)
Op.69 Six Lieder by Hermann Kletke for three women's voices. (Nos.1-3 without piano;
    Nos.4-6 with piano) (1884)
Op.71 Eight Lieder by Hermann Kletke for middle voice & piano (1884)

Works for Organ:
WoO Prelude in B flat major - O God & Lord [Ach Gott und Herr] for organ (1881)
WoO Prelude & Fugue in A minor for organ

Works for Piano:
Op.5 Flying Leaves [Fliegende Blätter] for piano (1849, 1855)
Op.24 Eight Little Flying Leaves in Child's Style [Fliegende Blättchen im Kinderton] for piano (1856)
Op.27 Flying Leaves [Fliegende Blätter] for piano. Vol.2: Three Scherzos & a Notturno (1856)
Op.28 Piano Sonata in C minor (1861)
Op.31 Flying Leaves [Fliegende Blätter] for piano. Vol.3: Four nos. (1856)
Op.33 Flying Leaves in Child's Style [Fliegende Blätter im Kinderton] for piano. Vol.2: 9 nos. (1857)
Op.43 Little Flying Leaves in Child's Style [Fliegende Blättchen im Kinderton] for piano.
    Vol.3: 9 nos. (1864)
Op.51 Variations on an Original Theme for piano (1868)
Op.52 Nine Fantastic Studies & Reveries [Fantastische Studien & Träumereien]for piano (1871)
Op.58 Eight Children's Songs [Kinderlieder] for three-part choir or solo voices with piano (1872)
Op.72 Nine Small Impromptus for piano (1886)
WoO Six Cello Sonatas by J.S. Bach, arranged for piano

Unidentified Opus Numbers: Opp.1-3, 10, 14, 16, 21, 37, 40, 42, 47, 62, 64, 68 & 70
Sources: HMB, WorldCat, IMSLP, SBB, RISM, Fleisher.
Dates: are generally those of publication, sometimes of performance, but not of composition.
Durations for Opp.29 & 49: are from Matesic's and Double-A's realisations of the works.
Translations: Mine, so apologies for the many errors.

A contemporary appreciation of Grädener, published in a German periodical to mark the composer's 70th birthday in 1882, lists more major works: 3 more symphonies, two operas, two oratorios, four cantatas, a second overture and a fifth string quartet. Other dictionaries and online references copy this larger list (or some features of it), but I can't find any trace of the scores themselves or performances of them. Here's an extract from the article, which itself makes no mention of any individual pieces:

Help in identifying any of these other works would be appreciated.

[Double-A]

For what it is worth:  I started transcribing Carl's string trio (from IMSLP) to get a score, since this is a relatively rare genre and additions of good works to the repertoire might be welcome.  However I got bored in the middle of the first movement because the music seemed to say nothing to me.  It is pleasant enough and very "chamber musical", but just boring and uninspired.

BTW it seems to be "Carl" most of the time.  Carl is (unaccountably) a very common spelling of the name in Germany; e.g. Carl Maria von Weber or Carl Gustav Jung.

[Mark Thomas]

Re: "Carl" - yes, that's clear, but I used Karl here to be consistent with the heading of the thread.

[Santo Neuenwelt]

Why would you need to transcribe the Carl Gradener String Trio to get a score when there is a perfectly good one as part of the violin part?  And the version from Sibley available on IMSLP is excellent quality and the Schuberth edition has rehearsal letters as well?  It would seem that everything one needs is already to be found there. Or were you transcribing it to arrange it for a different combination?

As an aside, I have played it and found it one of his better works, although, perhaps, this is not saying a lot. Still, our group liked it and thought the opening movement quite original...Of course, tastes vary.