Karl (1812-1883) and Hermann (1844-1929) Graedener

[matesic]

If you ignore the request to retune it sounds ever so slightly wrong, as I discovered when I heard the cellos in bars 5 and 6 of Variation 5 sounding in consecutive sevenths!  As with earlier writers of scordatura such as Biber, what you see in the score either is or is not what you get, according to which string you're playing on. Here passages marked "sul H" are to be played on the bottom string such that the initial written C sounds B (H in German terminology) and so on, while the "sul G" and "sul D" passages played on the higher strings sound as written. This applies throughout the movement so the cellist only needs to retune at the beginning. Try playing some Biber for a ear- and mind-bending experience!

[Santo Neuenwelt]

Well, Black, as the French say chacun à son goût---each to his own taste. So, far be it from me to say I am right and you are wrong.

It is true, I reported my own opinion which was shared by all of the players and most of the audience. Listen closely to the first movement. It is incredibly bombastic. He is playing for the grandstands and it is highly repetitive. Listen to the end of it...Apparently, judging from the fact that some, a minority, of the audience thought it was okay, it sounds better than it plays. But if you can play it, I am pretty certain you and your group will realize it is far from something he would be proud of...

[Double-A]

Matesic I take it back.  I should have considered why the string is always indicated in the score:  This is written in (quasi-)tabulatura, i.e. how it is stopped, not how it sounds.  So the Cs are all in fact Bs.

Bieber of course is not quite comparable:  He had strings that apparently could tolerate massive retuning (he has some very bizarre schemes in there, generating the possibility for some usually unavailable double stops), we don't any more.  As far as I recall he does not retune in the middle of a movement (though admittedly his movements are shorter than this one).  I never dared try for fear of damaging my strings; also they are not actually easy to play, quite the opposite. 

What I really meant is that this retuning creates problems for performance:  Do you retune mutely and risk the open string to be fairly massively out of tune?  Or do you retune with the usual glissando sounds thereby breaking the continuity of the  movement? (Unlike the Schumann I don't see a way to find a work around, those Bs are crucial).  This has probably contributed to the unsungness of the piece--which is truly impressive and worthy of a revival.

BTW I never quite understand why there are so few performances of even the Mendelssohn octet (which is not only brilliant, but also a crowd pleaser) let alone any of the others.  Combining two existing quartets should not be more difficult than finding an extra viola for quintets.  Is it because they can't agree which of the two first fiddlers gets to play first in the octet?

[black]

You're right of course, Santo. It is no use to discuss taste. It is just that I love to hear the piece and probably would have loved to play it, were it available when I still was an active viola player. To me it sounds utterly  Bruch'ish, much more than his 1st string quintet or his septet for wind and strings.
OK, sorry for being off topic.

[matesic]

Graedener does give his second cello a bit of a problem, to tune down the C-string without disturbing the rapt mood of the movement , but it only happens once at the natural caesura between the 4th and 5th variations. Once you've found it, and provided the peg isn't too sticky, the B should be secure enough until the end of the work. No problem in the recording studio, of course.  Violinists can sometimes afford the luxury of having a second instrument to hand (e.g. in Mahler 4), but I guess this isn't practical for a cellist!

Now I'm keen to take another look at Biber's Rosary Sonatas, many movements of which aren't technically too difficult. And I'll be using my second-best violin.

I think the main reason why Mendelssohn's Octet doesn't get programmed more often is the question of what to couple it with. Like it or not (actually I'm a sucker for the big tune in the finale), I'm thinking Bruch's octet could become its "natural" partner. Since the vast majority of concert-goers will be more attracted by a composer they've heard of, poor Graedener, Malling and the rest have still got a mountain to climb.

[eschiss1]

On recording, anyway, the Mendelssohn -has- been coupled with the Enescu a few times I think; in concert this would be a stamina challenge (two long, quite difficult octets back to back!)

I see four performances offhand of the Mendelssohn between now and July. The first, in Budapest in January, is coupled with Schumann's Märchenerzählungen. The second is in London in March, with a Paganini guitar quartet and Puccini's Cristantemi.  The third does indeed couple it with Bruch's octet (in Dortmund, in June. Frank Kistner plays double bass.) In July, also in London, the Mendelssohn is part of a program with works by Vivaldi (Magnificat RV 610) and Vaughan Williams

[matesic]

Hurriedly before someone corrects me, I just remembered the Bruch Octet substitutes a double-bass for the second cello, so not a "natural" partner for the Mendelssohn!

[eschiss1]

Alas, nobody's thinking of coupling it with Wilm's nonet

[black]

Hurriedly before someone corrects me, I just remembered the Bruch Octet substitutes a double-bass for the second cello, so not a "natural" partner for the Mendelssohn!

Could that have been the reason why Santo and his companions were not quite so enthousiastic?

[matesic]

So far nobody has mentioned daddy Karl Graedener's Octet for the standard combination - one for Santo's next octathon? It doesn't look too taxing for the first violin and the part-writing looks quite interesting too. Unfortunately my shoulder aches just thinking about the 4 hours it'd take me to get a read-through in the can.

[Double-A]

I could typeset a score (will take some time though; it is a long work), maybe a MIDI file would be better than no recording in this case.  A score would be useful for playing the piece anyhow. 
The first violin part is maybe not too hard, but it isn't exactly easy either BTW.

[matesic]

For an oh-so-rough impression of the first movement:

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/nu3vw4uk23z03al/gradenerC_octet_m1.mp3

I think that's as much as I have the energy for.

[Mark Thomas]

Thanks, Steve. It's certainly an attractive piece, by the sound of it.

[minacciosa]

My friend sent me a run-through with piano of Graedener's Violin Concerto No.2. It is a fantastic work; musically substantial, virtuosic and sporting good tunes, and a post-Brahmsian vocabulary that yields surprises. I'm amazed this hasn't been played far more often.

What happens next with this, I don't know. She wants to record this, and you're all familiar with the challenges.

[Double-A]

Reporting on progress on the octet by Carl Georg Peter Graedener to quote the full name at least once (and with the C for Carl):  All four movements have been entered into score and the first is also proofread.  In reasonable short order I ought to be able to post to IMSLP.  The plan is to make a MIDI version available as well.  Won't be very good compared to Steve's band, but better than nothing.  As of now I'd say the work is worth playing if somewhat uneven in appeal.
I will let everybody know when it is available.

BTW for what it is worth:  Meanwhile I have taken a listen to the Bruch octet and agree rather with the negative judgement by Santo.  I ought to say that I am generally not very impressed by Bruch, though of course the one sung VC (or at least its first two movements) is indeed beautiful and justly famous.