Czerny's orchestral oeuvre

[Balapoel]

I wouldn't be surprised, particularly for the (very) simple studies and the truly huge number of fantaisies varie from operas, etc., but I'm trying to narrow down what Czerny considered his 'serious' music, as they have a unique voice. We may be overwhelmed by sheer numbers and not find the pearls waiting...

[eschiss1]

Re sym. 5, I'd quite forgotten that someone published it in 2001. It can no longer be regarded as entirely "unpublished" (during his lifetime yes, but entirely, no.) Balapoel- true, but at a guess- and I do not know- I wouldn't be surprised if there were still a fair number of pearls and worthwhile inbetweens and &c. there. (And while I am I admit not a great fan of interminable etudes (I studied piano only the briefest time but am somewhat familiar with Czerny's etudes, I think, and perhaps with his sonatinas also- if that were all he had produced, if there weren't also the sonatas, concertos, and other works, I'd be much less interested. Even the fantasias, rondos, variations, etc. do intrigue me, though...)

[Martin Eastick]

Re Eric's query re the title of Op650: the title page itself is a listing of 8 "Oeuvres Choisies de Charles Czerny pour le Pianoforte", with this work being number 7 (For those interested, the others are: (1) Op257, (2) Op258 Nos 1&2, (3) Op260, (4) Op278, also with quartet accompaniment, (5) Op302, (6) Op649, ( Op259). Op650 is offered either as solo, [ii] with quartet, or [iii] with orchestra. There is no other title, with the first page of the score being printed on the reverse of the above - although perhaps there was originally an outer wrapper with a specific title etc.

[eschiss1]

it's that way in the review I found too- I was hoping for something more specific on the material (scores/parts/...) itself, but alas, not to be. Well, still, better present than lost, again, and thanks (and interesting!)

[eschiss1]

Tangentially (but not irrelevantly), trying to remember some of the library catalogs with large holdings that aren't well covered by Worldcat- besides LoC and the Austrian National Library, the Czech National Library often slips my mind in this connection, (Budapest's also and the Dutch and Danish nat. libs. too...) as do some Scandinavian ones (Swedish, Norwegian) and the Russian State Library, that are among the libraries worth searching individually (not just for Russian composers, not at all) when items don't turn up in a more comprehensive database like Worldcat. Keep meaning to start a list if someone else hasn't, for others to then add to... Anyway. Sorry...

[John H White]

Personally, although I enjoy listening to them, all the symphonies by Czerny that I've heard, sound very much alike to me. If he'd had the necessary really clever software in his day he could have fed in, say, his first 2 symphonies and let the computer churn (or should I say Czern?) out as many symphonies as he wanted. Like his actual symphonies they would all make good listening but would all sound much of a muchness.

[semloh]

...(or should I say Czern?) out as many symphonies as he wanted. .....

Nice one, John! 

[LateRomantic75]

I very much like what Czerny symphonies I've heard (nos. 1, 2, 5 and 6). They're very involving in their Beethovenian vigor and occasional sturm und drang, rather like the symphonies of Ries and Kalivoda. I particularly like the epic Second, which has been recorded in excellent performances by Nowak, Botstein, and Athianos.

[eschiss1]

I thought Botstein only recorded the D major of 1814. He's recorded Op.781 too?

[LateRomantic75]

I thought Botstein only recorded the D major of 1814. He's recorded Op.781 too?

Oops! I wasn't aware Czerny had composed two D major symphonies!

[eschiss1]

Check the list in the first post in this thread...

"Symphonies (6 total in Grove)
Symphony in D (1814) - recording available (61'00)
Symphony in c minor, Op. 780 (1840?) - available (36'05)
Symphony in D, op. 781 (1845?) - available (40'35)
Symphony in Eb (pub. 1845) -available (40'54)
Symphony in g minor (1854?) - available (33'03)
Symphony in C?
Symphony in D or d minor?
Symphony in Bb/B? (could be g minor)"

One sees that he may have written 3 in the key of D (major/minor), at least two of them in D major, unless the third in the Grove list is based on a mistaken reading of evidence (happens all the time) or bad/misleading/etc. evidence (ditto!), ...
Hrm. I thought the scherzo of one of them was in 2nd place, but it seems not. However, the movement headers are quite different- (ah. From Wikipedia: Allegro molto quasi presto - Adagio quasi andante in F - Scherzo: Molto presto in D minor - Allegro molto in D for the 1814 work... and for Op.781 in D, published 1847 (this from Amazon...): Andante maestoso ma con moto - (Allegro?) ; Andantino grazioso un poco moto ; Scherzo: Molto vivace (in major this time) ; Finale: Allegro vivace ...

"No.3" in C, "No.4" in D minor according to - an earlier volume of Grove?... hrm.
I am under the impression that these may not have been, except for the 1814 work (possibly not that one either?) performed during Czerny's lifetime?... so the numbering - not sure where it comes from... as only opp780, 781 were published other than posthumously and- well- hrm. Well...there is a modern edition of  the E-flat major "sym.5"- maybe the preface thereto answers some of those questions well enough that I should try to find a copy of it... (I haven't heard enough of his orchestral works, or often enough (and then mostly the piano concertos), to say yeah or nay in my opinion, to the claim that they tend to sound rather same-y, though I tend to think I would not agree based on the larger-scale music of his I have heard. Well, hopefully before long!)

[Balapoel]

Personally, although I enjoy listening to them, all the symphonies by Czerny that I've heard, sound very much alike to me.

Well, I for one have heard quite a bit of his orchestral music, and I do not agree (including 5 symphonies, 2 piano concertos, 2 overtures, and a few brillante-style piano and orchestra pieces - opp 73, 204, 255). I particularly like his use of winds. I don't detect major successive transformations from earlier to later periods, and this could perhaps be mistaken for 'sameness'.

And to be fair to Czerny, he himself differentiated his 'serious' and pedagogical music, so we shouldn't extrapolate from one to the other. When viewed in this way, he produced a more moderate oeuvre: maybe 35 or so chamber works, 7? symphonies, 3 (or 6) piano concerti, 11 sonatas, etc.

[eschiss1]

hrm- there seems to be a substantial amount of unpublished liturgical,  (at least some) concertante, orchestral and chamber music by him I think that may be in the Grove list, but I don't know for sure if it is. RISM online lists some of it, RISM (in print) I'm guessing lists more of it... That might add by a bit to those numbers (and while one or two of his vocal works and liturgical works have been recorded, I think only one or two have, e.g. on that recent Unknown Czerny compilation disc, and maybe on one earlier CD also.)

[Balapoel]

Well, I'm excluding the brillante style stuff and the pedagogical. And there was an "etc", which could cover a lot. But yes, there remains more in most genres.

[eschiss1]

btw, Symphony 5 first movement, live performance, if I may - here on YouTube.