Musical idioms

[Ilja]

I've come to the (sad?) conclusion that I can't really enjoy a lot of mid-20th century British music - not so much because of the music itself but more because of their common musical idiom. Conversely, I can pretty much tolerate anything written in early-20th C Belgium (De Greef, Jongen, Mortelmans, Van Hoof) irrespective of quality, for the same reason. In other cases, it has taken me a long time to get attuned to idioms such as that of the 'Nielsenites'. I will readily admit that it's my loss (or gain), but I was wondering how the people here would reflect on that.

[dafrieze]

I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "idiom."  It seems to me that the more mid-century British composers you know, the more different they sound from one another.  I would certainly never confuse, say, Vaughan Williams with Britten, or Britten with Humphrey Searle, or Searle with Peter Maxwell Davies 

[Ilja]

I mean more the second quarter: Bax, Bantock, Bowen maybe (although a little less).

[Alan Howe]

I would say the sheer amount and variety of music written in Britain between, say, 1925 and 1950 makes any sweeping statement as to a common musical idiom very difficult to sustain. It may be more accurate to speak of a number of recognisable idioms - e.g. VW-ian pastoralism, Waltonian jazz-inflected stuff, etc., otherwise I can't really see the argument...

[Amphissa]

Ilja, I wonder if this is a variation on the notion that there are national or regional styles of music.  This has been argued many times, although perhaps not here. The idea is put forward by those who argue that there is a "Russian" character, which is quite distinguishable from a "French" character, which is different from a "Nordic" character. You grew up immersed in Belgian music, but music that shares a Nordic character is less familiar and requires a different mindset.

Although I am not sure I am totally on board with this, I do know that I have a strong affinity for Russian composers. I can usually tell if a piece of music was written by a Russian composer, even if I've never heard it before and don't know who wrote it. But, although I have heard works by many of the Belgian composers you mention, I'm not sure I could identify an unfamiliar piece as written by a Belgian, whereas you might be able to do that easily. And Alan might be able to know that an unfamiliar work was British, even if he didn't know who wrote it.

When I listen to music by Nordic composers like Sibelius, Grieg, Tubin, Kapp, Nielsen, etc, I do sometimes think that there is something common among all these composers. I can't identify what that something is. Maybe it is rooted in the folk melodies, the music omnipresent in their culture, that percolates up into the composers' works, giving it all certain common tonal patterns or phrasings that are unique to that region.

The same might be said about the music of other countries or regions. And we may each feel a closer affinity to the common roots of one country/region than to others.

I'm not sure I make sense of this, even to myself. But I think I understand what you are talking about.

[TerraEpon]

A lot of it is in the rhythm -- music often imitates the way people speak.

[Dylan]

I'm sure that the way much C20th "national" music is very largely based on regional speech rhythms and patterns has a lot to do with one's appreciation. I personally feel very comfortable and at home with what might loosely be called North European (and North American) music; whereas while I can well appreciate the obvious merits of East Europeans such as Janaceck and Bartok, I can manage no more than objective admiration - the music doesn't "speak" to me in anything like the same way; and over the course of prolonged exposure to Janacek's operas I've come to the conclusion that I find the pattern of short, choppy, fragmented phrasing - clearly based on Czech speech rhythms - alien, and actively off-putting; whereas I always felt at home from the start with the longer, more liquid flow of  a composer such as Atterberg,  clearly echoing the lyrical rise and fall of spoken Swedish. My loss, I'm sure (as I'm always being told) but it isn't like there isn't plenty of other music to explore...

[Steve B]

Gosh, I can tell Belgian composers of the early 2oth century; Meulemans in particualar; I am sure Ilja can put me right on the history but when he wrote it was Flanders.Mortelmans too. Steve

[Peter1953]

Steve, Belgium consists of Flanders (the Northern part with Flemish speaking people, based upon the Dutch language) and Wallonia (the Southern part with French speaking people). Both Mortelmans and Meulemans are typically Dutch / Flemish family names. However, Peter Benoit, the famous Belgian composer, has a French family name but he was very Flemish. Who understands Belgium, that lovely country with composers like Vieuxtemps and Lekeu?

[eschiss1]

quite a few Belgian composers of note, including less famous ones in several centuries (in the 20th century I've gotten to like Victor Legley's music).  but also for a too incomplete by far list and just works I've heard some of, Joseph Jongen's works (many for organ, the Symphonie Concertante, but also chamber works- the BBC has broadcast half of one of his works for piano trio, there are also string quartets and others... also lieder, etc.!...), Flor Peeters' music with organ and for the liturgy (and intersection thereof), several works that Marco Polo and the Belgian label Alpha have recorded (only some of which I've heard of course, breaking my self-imposed rule immediately) by Devreese father and son, Poot, Maes, de Boeck, Ryelandt's substantial output, Servais, Crecquillon and others from the Baroque and Renaissance (the whole Flanders school? ah, maybe it would be good to restrict the timeline here after all )... are there connecting threads among these?... quite a bit of good music though from what I've heard...

[Steve B]

Yes, Echiss, Gottfried Devreese(father)- Violin Concerto has some beautiful, memorable melodies; Late Romantic in style; and the "Gothic Symphony" has its moments. Available on E-Music for download.Steve

[Ilja]

Steve, Belgium consists of Flanders (the Northern part with Flemish speaking people, based upon the Dutch language) and Wallonia (the Southern part with French speaking people). Both Mortelmans and Meulemans are typically Dutch / Flemish family names. However, Peter Benoit, the famous Belgian composer, has a French family name but he was very Flemish. Who understands Belgium, that lovely country with composers like Vieuxtemps and Lekeu?

Likewise, De Greef was francophone but with a Flemish name - something which happens a lot in Brussels, where nowadays the inner city is largely francophone but the outer rim is to a large extent Dutch (or Flemish; the differences are much more superficial than for instance between Dutch and German) speaking. But in the early 20th century it was the other way around. Easy, eh?

Benoit worked in a time in which Flemish culture was being actively oppressed by a French-speaking aristrocracy and church. Particularly the struggle for the use of Dutch at the University of Ghent became a cause célèbre (sorry) and Benoit asserted himself as one of the figureheads of the Flemish movement. Many works he wrote have (Flemish) national themes as their frame of reference: the Rubens Cantata, the 'Scheldt' oratorio and similar works are also massive in scale and were used as demonstrations of Flemish culture.

[Ilja]

I would say the sheer amount and variety of music written in Britain between, say, 1925 and 1950 makes any sweeping statement as to a common musical idiom very difficult to sustain. It may be more accurate to speak of a number of recognisable idioms - e.g. VW-ian pastoralism, Waltonian jazz-inflected stuff, etc., otherwise I can't really see the argument...

The discussion sofar has forced me to re-think and refine, and I guess is is the Vaugh-Williams-influenced pastoralism that is most difficult for me to find 'hooks' in and take in, musically. It is somewhat difficult from fatigue; I remember being utterly tired of Rimsky-Korsakov as a student after I'd spent about a year listening to little else, and certainly the 'richer' music such as that of the Russian national school can become repetitive after a while, particularly when composed by less gifted individuals.

But that is another thing, and it follows a period of basic appreciation. But what I'm talking about is a more psychological inability to get one's head around certain harmonies, arcs of concentration, and, even, melodies. Maybe it's just what we call 'taste' and that should be it. But what fascinates me is that although one can combine objective appreciation with utter inability to enjoy even at the most hedonistic level. Conversely, I do enjoy quite a bit of music that I consider pretty awful (Garofalo, anyone?).

[Steve B]

ilja, Garafalo, awful;u jest ;)Ok, Symphony  (mainly) is; camp incarnate because its PURPOSE (grandeur) was obviously serious; but in the Sontagian defintion of camp it it is so because it (UNKNOWINGLY) fails to live upto its intention in its delivery; but beautiful melodies and quite exciting!That poor Marco Polo recording, with some kind of scratch orchestra(think is Adriano who recorded Raff chamber music in early Lp days)certainly doesnt help; wrong notes, mis-tunings. I should like to hear a decent performance.Steve. PS Must re-listen to Violin Concerto.

PPS If anyone wants to run out and purchase is probably still available as cheap download from E-Music.

[eschiss1]

Adriano the conductor is (actually, let me look that up- I think it's a known fact ) the same as Adriano from the LP label, yes.

Ah. see the interview with Adriano here, where he talks about it.  Yep! (I'd heard this fact claimed but I wanted more evidence. I'd say that's reasonable evidence, as I haven't heard of him claiming that wasn't a valid interview.)