Using "Templates" from other Composers

[John H White]

Works by W A Mozart seem to have been used as a "template" by at least two of our "unsungs". Spohr appears to have based his Alruna Overture on the Magic Flute Overture, whilst the finale of Josef Netzer's  First Symphony appears to owe quite a lot in its general form to that of Mozart's so call "Jupiter" Symphony in the same key of C major. I wonder if there are other similar "borrowings" of musical frameworks by other unsung composers.

[JimL]

Besides the better-known example of Brahms modeling the finale of his 1st PC on that of Beethoven's 3rd, the finale of Urspruch's PC follows the same outline (A-trans-B-close-A-mod:C-fugue:A-lyrical variant:A-trans-A-B-close-cadenza-coda A), although in a major, rather than minor modality.

P.S. The modal variance is completely inverse, IIRC, i.e. the C section in the Urspruch is a minore, where in the Beethoven and Brahms it is in a major key (the flat submediant, IIRC).

[thalbergmad]

I have an old Guinness Book of Music which has loads of examples.

I never knew Saint Saens used a slowed down version of the Can Can for his Carnival of the Animals.

Thal

[John H White]

That's most interesting Thal. It reminds me of one particular school assembly back in the 40s when the boy at the organ treated us to a greatly slowed down version of the then popular song, "Roll Out the Barrel".
     

[thalbergmad]

That must have sounded excellent

I almost fainted with laughter the other day when it was pointed out to me that on you tube, some chap had accused Rachmaninov of stealing a Celine Dion tune for the 2nd movement of his 2nd Piano Concerto.

Thal

[eschiss1]

Well, more seriously as to that though I've mentioned it before, both the famous E-flat-major inverted variation in Rachmaninov's Paganini rhapsody (premiered 1934), and the very similarly-opening theme from his friend Medtner's Sonate-conte (Op.25/1) (ca.1911), both sound very like, my father points out, a popular tune (or popular in the US, anyway? Or a folktune? Have to ask again... and I don't remember the name; admittedly I'm just talking about five notes here...) that was in the air around 1900-1910 anyway...

[sdtom]

That must have sounded excellent

I almost fainted with laughter the other day when it was pointed out to me that on you tube, some chap had accused Rachmaninov of stealing a Celine Dion tune for the 2nd movement of his 2nd Piano Concerto.

Thal

I've heard on more than one occasion from fellow movie buffs that they were sure a particular theme they heard in a film was written specifically for that movie.
Tom

[TerraEpon]

If you're going to go with melodic models, there is of course the finale of Moszkowski's Piano Concerto which is very clearly modeled after the finale of Tchaikovsky's 2nd PC. So much so that it's demonstrated in a The Teaching Company lecture (<plug>which are a fantastic listen if you've never heard them -- check your local library </plug>)

[izdawiz]

would Eduard Franck's Violin Concerto in E op. 30 copying from Mendelssohn violin Concerto in E count? 

[JimL]

Well, more seriously as to that though I've mentioned it before, both the famous E-flat-major inverted variation in Rachmaninov's Paganini rhapsody (premiered 1934), and the very similarly-opening theme from his friend Medtner's Sonate-conte (Op.25/1) (ca.1911), both sound very like, my father points out, a popular tune (or popular in the US, anyway? Or a folktune? Have to ask again... and I don't remember the name; admittedly I'm just talking about five notes here...) that was in the air around 1900-1910 anyway...

I think I've seen the score and it's in D-flat, not E-flat.  Of course, I could be mistaken...

[eschiss1]

I expect you're right about the Rachmaninov (I think the Medtner's in E-flat) - the melodic/intervallic/in-sound similarity (-not- rhythmic, etc.) was more what I meant (even though the Rachmaninov is also more- demonstrative? - Af F Gf Af Df!.. Df Bf C Df Af while the Medtner is the opening of a quiet interlude -- more Bf G... Af Bf Ef..C D Ef-D-C Ef C-Bf
well, one would have to hear it for it to be clearer.  Maybe one can hear part of that somewhat less-known work as a sound sample at Hyperion (Hamelin's recording or elsewhere - ah. Yes. There is a minute's worth of the slow movement in mp3 at Hyperion's website, from Hamelin's recording- there one can hear the opening I'm referring to. Try this link. (And yes, the note writer in 1998 makes the same observation I do. I probably made the same when I got Fellegi's recording on Marco Polo in the early 1990s. Brahms' response to someone who made some comment about a work of his - his C major piano sonata? His first symphony? And Beethoven- probably applies here- with me as the donkey.)

[TerraEpon]

I think the Brahms comment was, that someone mentioned his finale of the 1st symphony sounding a lot like Ode to Joy, and Brahms reply was "any idiot can hear that"....or something.

Oddly enough, when I first heard it I thought it was actually "Home, Sweet Home" (aka There's No Place Like Home) which it does share a vague similarity....I guess.

[eschiss1]

not "idiot"- not in the original German. I just, erm, softened Esel to "donkey". (Gotta love "smallest ro.." i mean, musical invective and its history. I should read more about the history of Raff's Wagnerfrage, one these days...)

Composers well-known for using such templates exist on both sides of our discussion period (Mozart, Robert Simpson) - just trying to think of more of them within it... though the homage of the slow movement of Reger's piano concerto to that of Beethoven's 4th has been remarked on too... (and others- one of his works has been called an updated "Brandenburg concerto"...)

[FBerwald]

would Eduard Franck's Violin Concerto in E op. 30 copying from Mendelssohn violin Concerto in E count? 

I am SORRY but WHAT??? Other than the key and a few mendelssohnian touches here and there they have nothing in common. The Mendelssohn is a dramatic piece with slight agitato feel to it. The Eduard Franck from the very beginning is more serene. There are some passages which sound like Mendelssohn but the I can't see any other similarities. It can't be called copying any more that calling Stanford's 2nd Piano Concerto a copy of Rachmaninoff's 2nd PC!
If not, then we might as well call every Brahmsian composer, a copy of Brahms!!! 

[eschiss1]

Well, for example, the list of Romantic composers who used Beethoven's late quartets for their formal templates doesn't seem to have been very large (but not zero, either. Draeseke's 3rd quartet seems to have Beethoven late quartets _somewhere_ in the background... maybe. (Not sure if Hirschbach's oddly-structured late quartets are taking Beethoven as their inspiration or a literary source of some kind, or...) 

(And yes, Mendelssohn and others (Stenhammar 3, 4?) - though even then, not many others, I think, though I'm not sure- used them as a starting-off point in other ways, but despite all the digression in which I've happily participated this thread is really about _formal_ templates, not melodic or rhythmic or &c, and that has a strict meaning.)