A Sad Day......

[eschiss1]

Well, I keep thinking the general explanation (for trends) in concert attendance has to be found elsewhere, since I'm under the impression- which may be very inaccurate - that the trends have been generally downward on both sides of the Atlantic, but programming of modernist 20th/21st century music has been a lot less since 1970 or so? (I think) in the USA here - by the major orchestras at least. (Some Boulez, e.g., - 16 concerts in the 12 or so months - mentioned in Bachtrack.com, but only a very little in the US, and most of that- all but one concert, one dedicated to Boulez and his influence, in NYC in early 2014- are of the orchestration of his early Notations.) The 6 concerts they list with music by Stockhausen are all in Europe. In my experience, a premiere in the US is more likely to be of music by Mackey (eclectic post-modern - cards on the table, he was the teacher of my class in theory through performance and composition back in '87) or Harbison, e.g., than of anyone in the US working in a Darmstadt sort of vein- or Lindberg-ish, for that matter- if there are that many people here who are, now...

(Though works by Irving Fine -are- listed in the next year or so (chamber orchestra and string trio works) so I'm not -quite- right.) Hrm. I also see something I should maybe add to the other thread, unless Foulds is no longer within our bounds of discussion- maybe he isn't, as he was definitely an exploratory composer... (which always leads me to the question "what really makes Liszt a Romantic" but that is not a question with a brief answer. Not a brief one, merely an important one.)

[erato]

Well, it's the lack of Pistons and Crestons etc that keep me from attending concerts.

It's the plethora of Stockhausens, Boulezes, etc. that keep me away. And I too would go for concerts featuring good, tonal 20th/21stC music. But it's the restricted 19thC repertoire that's the real scandal.

I have never noticed any work by either Stockhausen, Boulez, Piston or Creston on concert programmes in the 40 years I have gone to concerts in Norway, not even a Vaughan-Williams symphony (not that I research advertised concerts in great detail, but still....)! I would have welcomed any of them for yet another rerun of the old faithful (not that I'm not a fan of Brahms and Beethoven).

[Alan Howe]

You need to come to the UK. Plenty of Boulez, etc. here; no Creston or Piston, of course.

[eschiss1]

more of a fan of some of the in-between modernists- who actually have gotten some play, more play perhaps, even American ones, in England and Europe than in their own country... (and recordings, too, like what I gather is a fine recording of Sessions' 2nd piano sonata on Virgin Classics)...

Have you heard that story of the Piston symphony that was recorded in Russia (now available on the Citadel label- Gauk conducting) during the USSR years?... erm. Anyway. Offtopic for this group but ... if the background story is true (the conductor left the score and parts behind when he went back to the USA, the musicians found it and decided- let's play this...)  and it wasn't actually just a case of "you -will- play this piece!"... I'd love the first story to be true, unlikely though it is.  I think all composers would love to have musicians react to a piece of theirs with that kind of enthusiasm, somehow- I don't know...

[Greg K]

How much was Vanska being paid?  Anyone know?

[jerfilm]

Not sure, but one blog suggested around a million.  Also, the average musician was making aound $129,000 prior to the unpleasantness.  And the original stories coming out of Minneapolis was the initial offer to them was $89,000! 

Here's a quote from the Minnesota Orchestra's own website:

"Our lowest-paid musicians last season received $137,000 in salary/benefits; the highest earned $233,900 (not including the concertmaster position). "

So if you include benefits, the $129K figure is way low.  Here's a quote from the NY Times:
"Management's current proposal for a three-year contract calls for an annual average salary of $104,500, compared to $135,000 in the expired contract. Michael Henson, the orchestra's president and chief executive, has said he would reduce his compensation package in the same proportion.   How generous of Mr. Henson.......

Vanska's salary seems to be a secret.  Which doesn't surprise me inthe least. 

Oh, at least 30 musicians have already left.

Jerry

[Dave]

I  Agree. Just look at what the American Symphony Orchestra (ASO) has been accomplishing especially under Botstein. It's too bad they do not record (or play) as much, but it's gratifying to see them tackle non-repertoire works esp. of Soviet composers (Popov, Myaskovsky, et al).

[Richard Moss]

Just returned from holiday and seen this thread. 

Our local orchestra (The Northern Sinfonia) seem to follow the trend of mixing standard popular repertoire (e.g. Brahms, Mozart or Beethoven) with more modern stuff.  As a traditional music lover of romantic music (e.g. melody and harmony, as Mark put it), I'm reluctant to shell out good money for a concert on the off-chance I might enjoy something modern.  Life's too short to listen to music you don't enjoy.

via classic FM or other sources, sometimes I come across a nice melodic piece by a modern composer but that doesn't seem to be their norm - I then try a CD of their stuff and most of it is 'throw away' material as far as I'm concerned.  Given the price of concert tickets, I don't wish to waste my limited funds. 

If orchestral players were less 'prima donna' about how much they think they should earn and took their chances like pop singers (i.e. the market decides what it wants and then their pay is according), maybe current anomalies would sort themselves out.  Given the relative minority interest in classical music, players should maybe play for the love of the music at a modest salary and do better if they/their music can, like most walks of life.

I suspect most authors, artists and other'arts' people do not enjoy lavish lifestyles but live for their art and make money where they can.  Sometimes, they get lucky (particularly modern so-called art) but that is the lucky few - the rest soldier on for their love of their art (except here in UK where we use taxpayer funds for what many think is modern rubbish).

In England, our Royal Opera House (building and artists) for example are world class but at a very substantial subsidy from tax-payer funds but most ordinary folk cannot dream of affording the prices to go there, even if they liked the repertoire.  Without the subsidy, what would happen, I wonder?  This is the same dilemma noted before for the Minnesota et al.

A subsidised nursery for emerging talent is fine (e.g. our National Youth or Childrens Orchestras) but after that I believe the big bad world should take over and if orchestras and their management price themselves out of the market, so be it.  I agree totally that 2nd tier orchestras, except for those with the finest ears, give most of us nearly as much pleasure at a much more affordable price.

Our 'unsung' romantic composers (e.g. Raff, Ries, Reinecke, to name but three and apologies to Alan and Mark if they don't now consider them 'unsung') virtually never wrote anything bad to our ears - just good or very good, so we would happily pay to listen to one of their unknown works but we never get the chance (I won't re-open that topic!)

Whilst I miss the buzz of a live concert, I'd rather spend my money on Hyperion, CPO etc than on a concert I don't fancy.  Are we witnessing the slow decline of live classical music and the rise of the recording studio session instead?  Perhaps they could be video'd and edited as part of the recording and all end up watching that via Youtube or something instead??

Sorry it's been a long post - I'll shut up now.

Cheers

Richard

[Mark Thomas]

In England, our Royal Opera House (building and artists) for example are world class but ... most ordinary folk cannot dream of affording the prices to go there,

I just want to pick up on this point of Richard's. People moan on (with all due apologies to Richard, who isn't moaning) about the price of concert tickets and even more so about the price, well into the £100s, of opera tickets at places like the Royal Opera House. Take a look at the cost of going to a mediocre, mass market West End play or musical - generally more than any concert you'd attend in London, never mind the provinces. Even better, take a look at what "ordinary people" people in their tens of thousands are very willing to pay to see the likes of Beyoncé and Adele - the prices for their stadium shows, were you are probably watching the whole thing on a huge screen, go way up into the high £100s, making Covent Garden look like a bargain evening out. The high relative expense of the serious performing arts is a total myth, often  propagated by people who want to make our sort of music appear elitist. The performing arts are just a market place, like anything else, and people will pay what the entertainment is worth to them. Society determines that Wagner is only worth £150, whereas Beyoncé can command £350 and more.

[eschiss1]

I remember reading a similar point in one of Alex Ross' columns awhile back and being very surprised myself; I guess I'd been just as taken in, yes. (Though the one Promenade concert I've ever gone to was still one of the cheaper orchestral ones I remember, I think- in cost, not in quality - or maybe in potential cost; a (late) friend got the tickets, I think I was just looking at the list of possible prices... erm- anyway.)

[sdtom]

Tickets can be purchased an hour before the performance for a lot less money. There are discounts given to seniors and many packages available to reduce the cost.

I still think the answer lies in shortening the season which means fewer concerts. The place where they perform could further reduce the cost. The US is going through some hard times as well as other countries and the money spent on tickets could easily go to pay down credit cards.

Tom

[mbhaub]

Not all concerts are expensive. Where I live, we have several orchestras with ticket prices in the $15 - $30 range (Sorry, I don't know exactly what the British equivalent would be). The large, professional orchestra in town charges $25 - $125 per concert. Here's the problem: do you want to pay money to hear a decent, not great, semi-professional group struggle with Brahms 1st, or spend more money hearing a professional group do the same symphony? Frankly, given the cost of tickets, the hassle of driving/parking, the rude behavior of audiences these days, I'd rather save my money and stay home and listen to Klemperer do Brahms 1. I know that there's nothing like a live concert - that is if everything goes well. But I also know that too many times I have spent a good amount of money on a concert that wasn't worth it, all things considered. I play in  several of these semi-pro groups, and I ask myself: if I weren't playing in this concert, would I go to it as an audience member? Rarely have I said yes.

Then there's this: last year, American conservatories and universities churned out some 30,000 (!!!!) music performance majors. Why? When a bassoon position opens in a 2nd tier orchestra there are some 400-600 applicants. Why is this? Why are we producing so many performers for so few positions?

What I would love to see happen is this: the major orchestras, like Berlin, Vienna, New York, London, etc, broadcast their concerts on a pay-for-play basis like the Met is doing with operas. The BBC broadcasts the Proms, but why not put them on commercial cable tv and offer it to those of us who would like to tune in and see the video? Of course, the forgotten composers won't benefit much.

[chill319]

@Mark. Well said, and I am happy to see you crossed the 3000 mark as pithy and ardent as ever. We in Wisconsin are extremely fortunate to have better than decent orchestras and better than decent conductors that can be seen and heard for around £10 -- or even less if you're superannuated like myself. The content of the programs is far less inclusive of unsungs than I would prefer, but that would be true anywhere, and last spring we heard a superb Rachmaninoff Bells.

[jerfilm]

Pontification time.  Again.

From where I sit, it appears that orchestras today in general program the same way they did 55 years ago when I first starting buying subscription concert season tickets.  Most of them don't seem to make much effort at creative marketing.  You list the programs and hope folks buy tickets.  As a buyer you look at the schedule and you see von Sauer's 2nd Piano Concerto on February 3rd and you haven't a clue who he was and you might reasonably assume that this is another of the maestro's favorite modern composers.  And it will likely be ten degrees below zero F. and who wants to drive 150 mile round trip in the middle of the night to hear THAT??

Bernstein had the right idea.  The Young People's Concerts, for example, told you that you would be hearing accessible works, with interesting stories (a la Jeffrey Siegel.....).  More than once I suggested to the Minnesota that they do a Romantic Piano Concerto series or Romantic Symphony series.  Or both.  And do one, say, once a month during the season.  Then when John Q. Ticketbuyer sees the program list, he KNOWS that the von Sauer is a piece that will be pleasant to the ear.   Of course that never happened. 

Maybe it wouldn't have helped.  But wouldn't it have been worth a try?

Jerry

[sdtom]

I probably should know you as we reside in the same state but I don't. As you know yesterdays game between the Vikings and Panthers was a sellout. The NFL has learned about marketing while our symphony has certainly not. The whole situation saddens me as much as you.
Tom