That "I'd forgotten he was so good" moment...

[Alan Howe]

I've just had one of those moments of rediscovery/true discovery. It concerns the superb four late symphonies by Muzio Clementi (the ASV recordings conducted by D'Avalos, just reissued for next to nothing by Brilliant), especially No.4 which has hit me like a sort of musical exocet. I had completely forgotten how good these symphonies are - how grand, how forceful (wonderful brass writing), how memorable.

Has anyone else had such an experience? Maybe you've bought a CD, not listened to it properly and then discovered it again later?

[petershott@btinternet.com]

Yes, Alan. But you sure won't want to read on! For it was Birtwistle, no less! The opera Mask of Orpheus. I picked up the CD recording years ago, had a listen, got quite baffled, and laid it to one side intending (quite unsincerely) to have another go. And there it lay gathering dust. The more recent Minotaur (a rather tedious piece I thought) did nothing to hasten me back to Orpheus.

So one for the s/h CD dealer? Before that fate, perhaps one more try. Heck, I'm glad I did. I now consider it a terrific piece. Now the bricks start hurtling towards me! I can live with that.

Peter

[thalbergmad]

I had set myself the task of clearing out some old tapes and nestled in between Winifred Atwell and the Best of Mrs Mills was Reger's Variations on a Theme by Telemann played by Bolet, that I had not heard for yonks.

What a stupendous piece of music and what masterful playing.

Thal

PS enjoyed listening to Wini and Mrs Mills again as well

[Pengelli]

Really? Reger and Mrs Mills? What a combination! The mind boggles!!! I was watching a 'Nearest and Dearest' dvd,   with my parents a couple of weeks ago and Hylda ('Has he beeen?) Baker mentioned her. I think Jimmy Clitheroe came up too. My,that all seems a long time ago,nearly as long ago as Reger,almost. Very funny it was too.....but not very pc! (Think I missed out on Winifred Atwill,I'm afraid). Anyway,back to the main topic..........

[Syrelius]

I've just had one of those moments of rediscovery/true discovery. It concerns the superb four late symphonies by Muzio Clementi (the ASV recordings conducted by D'Avalos, just reissued for next to nothing by Brilliant), especially No.4 which has hit me like a sort of musical exocet. I had completely forgotten how good these symphonies are - how grand, how forceful (wonderful brass writing), how memorable.

The Clementi symphonies are really underestimated.  Alan, have you heard Scimone's recordings om Erato? I prefer those to the d'Avalos recordings, but perhaps it's just that I heard Scimone first...   

[Alan Howe]

I'm satisfied with D'Avalos: I trust Martin Anderson's review:

These are revelatory recordings. The compositional stature of Muzio Clementi has never really been fully acknowledged. Most people get to know his music through those sonatinas we all had to plough through when we were kids – but we didn't notice then that Clementi was one of history's foremost teachers of the piano: his pupils included Field, Cramer, Moscheles, Kalkbrenner and Meyerbeer, and Nicolas Slonimsky calls his Gradus ad Parnassum a "great book of études". The adjective is not one that Slonimsky bandies around easily. Now we find that he was also one of the outstanding symphonists of his generation.
Clementi's piano music has made more headway in the recording studio than his orchestral music has: Horowitz was an early admirer, and his 1950 and '54 performances of three of the Sonatas (Op. 14, #3, Op. 26, #2 and Op. 34, #2) have re-appeared on an outstanding RCA CD, coupled with a 1979/80 live recording of the Sonata, Op. 33, #3 (GD 87753) – real ear-openers. And that live recording is of particular interest now since the first of these landmark discs from AS&V reveals that Op. 33 Sonata to be a version for solo piano of Clementi's only surviving piano concerto – and although it is not authenticated (the single manuscript of the orchestral version is not in Clementi's hand), it certainly sounds thoroughly idiomatic in its fuller form.
The prime mover of the Clementi revival, and soloist in this new recording of the Piano Concerto, is the Italian pianist and musicologist Pietro Spada, who over the years has devoted himself to the editing of Clementi's complete works. These three CDs provide ample justification for his efforts.
Six (largely) complete symphonies by Clementi have survived – two early works and four mature and powerful statements from a composer in full command of his gifts. The 2 Symphonies, Op. 18, published in London in 1787, are all that has made it from what was apparently a copious orchestral output in Clementi's youth. The style owes much to Haydn, as you might expect, but they are sturdy and satisfying works in their own right, well-crafted and enjoyable. As Spada's notes point out, among Italians of the period only Salieri was producing anything of this quality. The undated manuscript of the Minuetto Pastorale bears an instruction that it was to form part of a missing symphony – but obviously a much later one, for the orchestral style shows a considerable advance on those early essays.
Symphony #1 in C Major, like the others, dates from the last 25 years of Clementi's life (Spada doesn't seem to know exactly when), and shows the composer at the height of his powers. The beginning of the first Allegro is missing, and so in the 1930s Alfredo Casella attempted a completion; Spada's edition tries to establish a text closer to Clementi's original. Again like the other three mature symphonies, it is a big-boned work, and Clementi adds to the sense of size by adding three trombones to the orchestra – then an innovative gesture indeed. The sole autograph of the Symphony #2, curiously, is split between two sources (the British Library and the Library of Congress), and once more Spada had to rescue the music from Casella's well-mean editorial interventions. It confirms Clementi's scarcely suspected symphonic talent, its influences now absorbed to produce individual music of moving eloquence and power. With the Third Symphony, the "Great National Symphony", Clementi went some way to shooting himself in the foot, if for the noblest of reasons. In tribute to his adopted homeland, he based the Symphony on "God Save the King", which is hinted at earlier in the work, not least in the second movement, and announced unapologetically by the trombones in the finale. It almost comes off, and might have done with a better tune (now, if he had settled in Paris...). The gem of the four late Symphonies is #4, the source of which is again split between London and Washington. It begins with a spacious slow introduction that announces what was for those days an enormous sense of space; the scoring is similarly muscular. The music then launches into a powerful symphonic allegro that takes the best part of ten minutes to play itself out, displaying along the way a Beethovenian orchestral freedom (listen to the horns at the close, for example). The other three movements are conceived with a similar feeling for size: Spada justifiably claims that the slow movement hints at Schumann and Brahms and that the rhythmic insistence of the minor-key Scherzo (which Clementi rather modestly entitled "Minuet") foreshadows Bruckner; throughout, too, I wonder whether Schubert knew it.
The two straggling works recorded here, icing on a particularly fine cake, are mature symphonic fragments; it isn't clear whether they were written for symphonies that weren't completed or whether they are all that has survived. The Overture in C has come down complete; that in D required Spada to provide a substantial part of the ending: the manuscript breaks off at the beginning of the recapitulation. Its opening, by the way, you'll find as the beginning of the Third Symphony, transposed to G, since that too was missing – Spada's surgery has been attentive and thorough.
Francesco d'Avalos gets predictably fine playing from the Philharmonia, and AS&V give them a satisfyingly full-blooded recorded sound – necessarily so, for Clementi's beefy orchestral textures need it. All three discs can be strongly recommended, but if you want to dip before buying all three, there is no doubt that the Second and Fourth Symphonies are the ones to try first. You'll be back for more.
Copyright © 1993/1996, Martin Anderson

http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/a/asv00803a.php

[Pengelli]

I taped the 'Great National Symphony' off R3 when Clementi was a Composer of the Week. That sort of thing is always good fun,even if it doesn't quite come off. I said to my mother,'He uses a certain famous tune in the finale. My mother said dryly,'I suppose it's 'God save the Queen'!' (The tune can be a bit controversial over here,in parts of Wales). Actually,I taped the other programmes too. I hope they survived my recent clear out. A very interesting & rewarding composer,I thought.
NB: I nearly typed 'Grand National Symphony'. That would have to be played at a gallop!

[chill319]

Some composers have early and evident brilliance; others ripen later. In my opinion no composer grew more over a lifetime of steady application than Clementi. His Gradus is a treasure trove of excellent sonata movements and contrapuntal works that are as masterful as (but less quirky than) Reicha's. It's a musical summation in the sense of Bach's Art of the Fugue. I hear Clementi's late works, symphonies and sonatas alike, as masterful and clearly the product of a mature and original mind.

As I've aged, some complex works that sounded dull or overlong or overstuffed to me in past decades now sound fresh and adventurous. Often these works represent a composer's or period's "later" style. The extreme instance for me is the works of Furtwängler, which for many years sounded to me as if their ambitions exceeded his talents but which I now hear quite differently.

[Alan Howe]

When I heard Barenboim's magnificent account of F2, I had one of those 'I didn't realise the music was so good' moments - a function, no doubt, of great orchestra and great conductor taking up the challenge of an unsung symphony.

[JimL]

F2?  I don't recall this thread being about an F.  Which F are we talking about?

[Josh]

The Chandos disc in the "Contemporaries of Mozart" series that has 3 Clementi symphonies on it, has a version of the "#1" that blows away either of the other two versions I've heard.  It's the London Mozart Players, conducted by Mathias Bamert.  Grouped with it are the only two of his earlier (six) symphonies that survive, and I love them also.  The orchestra is crystal clear, letting you hear that brilliant orchestration of the first of his "big" symphonies in a way that the other two recordings I have don't even touch.  In addition, the overall sound quality of the disc itself is higher; I've usually thought Chandos had really good sound quality.

Just get that CD and check out the first movement of WoO32; if you think that Clementi was a good orchestrator from either of the complete sets that are out, just wait until you hear how it sounds here.  I actually consider Clementi the greatest orchestrator prior to Raff.  Before I knew Raff, I considered him the greatest orchestrator I'd ever heard.


PS: Pengelli, I think it is the first movement of the "Great National" symphony that is the standout in that work. I've got the first 15 seconds or so after the slow intro stuck in my head right now, just from reading about it.  I admit to loving all four movements, though, including the fun finale.  I'm not sure why that symphony isn't more famous... the main theme employed in the second and fourth movements is certainly memorable!

[JimL]

What year was it (the Great National) composed?  If it was around the time of Beethoven's middle period that use of the anthem in more than one movement would qualify as an early example of cyclic technique.

[Alan Howe]

F2 = Furtwängler 2. See chill319's post...

There is evidently some uncertainty surrounding the composition dates of the four late Clementi symphonies. I have read of a possible span of 1810-1824...

[Pengelli]

I'm glad you started this thread. I was trying to think of someone 'different' from this period to add to my collection. The only Clementi I have at present is on ye olde cassette tapes,most of them from Clementi's 'stint' as R3 Composer of the Week. (Fingers crossed, I've got the actual programmes,themselves. I did have a major cull of tapes a while back,unfortunately.).

[Peter1953]

Very enthusiastic and convincing comments about the Clementi Symphonies, combined with a real bargain price, resulted in ordering the D'Avalos recordings on Brilliant.

But I had a "forgotten he was so good moment" a few days ago, listening to the MP disc with De Greef's 2 PCs. Wonderful music which I had almost completely forgotten. It was some kind of an Aha-Erlebnis...