Bax Symphony in F from Dutton

[Alan Howe]

It's my opinion - and apparently not only mine. I just don't rate the piece - sorry. You're entitled to your view. I just don't happen to agree with it. Unsurprisingly, I find the 'pro' arguments unconvincing and bordering on special pleading for this ramshackle, but fascinating piece.

[Mark Thomas]

I'm inclined to call a halt to this debate, which is beginning to become just a restatement of established and irreconcilable positions. Perhaps we can call a truce and move on to something else?

[Josh]

Hopefully, this comment won't be seen as a continuation on how good this work might be, mainly since I've never heard it!

But I did want to talk about something related.  It seems that almost everyone who has listened to this completed symphony seem to find at least some passages to be worthwhile.  Which is something I've often wondered about.   I know of a few works where there is a passage or two that I consider incredible, surrounded by content I dislike (or, in some cases, loathe), but sometimes I'll bring out one of those pieces and skip around to just what I want to hear.  Not something I normally do, but there are some cases, and indeed some composers in general (ie. Sibelius) that get such treatment from me.  For example, I hate 98% of Sibelius' 7th Symphony, but in particular the very ending is one of the most incredible orchestral "scenes" I've ever run across... strange as it may sound, I've only listened to this entire work throughout one time, but of the last minute or so I've heard at least 5 different versions, some of them multiple times!!

Sorry if this shows me out as extremely bizarre; actually, it probably reveals me as the equivalent of a perpetual fastfood lover talking of my preferred eating habits while sitting among frequenters of Michelin Guide 3-star restaurants.  I just regret that with music, there's not really a reasonable way to separate what might make for a few fine, smaller à la carte items out from only being obtainable by eating a large, dissatisfying meal.  (Again, I mean in general, not about this Bax symphony in particular, I'm not saying it's dissatisfying!)

[eschiss1]

Even though I like, enjoy, even perhaps love, Sibelius 7 a good deal more than you do, I also(?) find the last page-or-so transcendent- breathtaking... (though I think that there's even more to it in its place than in isolation, as with similar passages by a Danish composer who died about 15 years ago) - and mutatis mutandis for many another work, whether the last page, or some other passage, or some other quality, or some other... this-that. Not a bizarre thing.

[Alan Howe]

Thanks, Mark, for jolting us into moving on. Apologies for the rather bald statement of my views - but I have appreciated the debate. And renewed thanks to Martin Yates and Dutton for getting us thinking about the early work of this wonderful composer.

[jerfilm]

Yes, a monumental task and we owe him many thanks.

However, I have never been particularly fond of Bax's music and this piece does nothing to improve my opinion.  Yes, there really are some lovely little moments from time to time but each time it seems to dissolve into bombast and loudness.  Honestly, i'm not sure i could sit through a concert performance. 

perhaps not appropo, but made me think of trying to converse with someone who doesn't understand your language.  And so one repeats oneself louder and louder somehow hoping that the other person will suddenly understand....

Ah well, sorry Baxians.....

Jerry

[giles.enders]

Let me try and explain why I think it worthwhile for Martin Yates to have 'realised' this work. It is not just the final quality but seeing where the composer was at at the time of the abandoned work.  Sometimes bits get recycled and I enjoy spotting that.   I'm pleased that the Elgar 3rd was completed, the success of which as Alan states is partly due to Elgar.  I am also pleased that all of the following works have been completed by others; Bruckner's 9th, Tchaikovsky's 3rd Piano concerto, Schubert's 7th, 8th and 10th Symphonies, Moscheles 8th piano concerto, Beethoven's early piano concerto. not to mention the completions of Mozart works. The list is endless but I would always wonder about what could have been with out these completions and as one of those unfortunates who cannot judge the quality of what might have been by looking at fragments of a score, I am grateful for any completion, though the damage done to a composers reputation can also happen.  I have in mind the so called Elgar piano concerto and the awful realisation of Stavenhagen's piano concerto of 1912.

[Jimfin]

I'd like to second pretty much everything in Giles' post!

[Gareth Vaughan]

I have in mind the so called Elgar piano concerto and the awful realisation of Stavenhagen's piano concerto of 1912.

Hear, hear! The realisation of the 2nd Stavenhagen PC must be one of the most gruesome things ever committed to disk: completely unsympathetic and wholly hideous.  Whatever people think of the substance of Bax's early symphony, Martin Yates has done a first class job - indeed, a model of its kind.

[musiclover]

Well said Giles, I think you have put it perfectly, much more articulate than I was trying to do!
I still take issue with Alan as you say the music isn't of intrinsic worth - "it plainly isn't".....for you that may be the case but for others it is not, and just by writing it doesn't give your opinion any more credibility than mine or anyone else's.

[Alan Howe]

You misquote me. Re-read what I actually said, please (see below). And then let's move on, as Mark suggested.

<<Nobody is suggesting that the recording shouldn't have been made or that it isn't enlightening with regard to the later Bax: plainly it is. However, that doesn't automatically mean that the music is of great intrinsic worth, because it equally plainly isn't.>>(emphasis added)

[Jimfin]

I think we broadly agree that it was worth making the recording to discover something about Bax' early career (not least the fact that he toyed with symphonic composition: I was previously under the impression that he was against the idea until he wrote a piano sonata that happened to turn out to be a symphony), but that the work is not an overwhelming masterpiece, as one would expect from a man in his early 20s attempting something this ambitious. Whether we each enjoy it is a different question. I certainly do.

[eschiss1]

Well, didn't he also call "Spring Fire" (1913) a symphony?

[giles.enders]

I have never held a torch for Bax, however he was starting his career at a time when what was considered a symphony had become far less prescriptive and during a period when what was considered acceptable by the 'establishment' was also being challenged.  If the old guard in music had had it's way we may never have had ' Tone Poems'  but perhaps like the curates egg they could have stifled  the second Viennese school before it got going.

[Alan Howe]

... but perhaps like the curates egg they could have stifled  the second Viennese school before it got going.

I'm not with you, Giles...