Music about the North by Non-Scandinavian Composers

[Alan Howe]

BTW, I agree: Gade, Berwald and Grieg must come into the discussion before Sibelius (chronologically speaking). So who of the non-Scandinavians were decisively influenced by them? I'll kick off with Martucci (2nd Symphony - definite echoes of Sibelius). Beyond UC's remit there would, of course, be any number of British composers who composed under the shadow of the great Finn. 

[Gauk]

We still need some sort of exploration of what it is that constitutes "northernness" (for want of a better word) in music written by composers from elsewhere. The use or imitation of certain folk material? The copying of the idiom of certain composers from northern climes?

Anyone got any ideas?

Why assume that anything in music constitutes northernness? Many would say that the OP is based on the falsity that music is "about" anything other than itself. A composer may subtitle a symphony "The North" (has anyone mentioned Frederic Cowen yet?) but even if it throws in a few Norwegian folk tunes it is still basically "about" the manipulation of its own musical material.

The exception might be overtly programme music, or impressionistic tone pictures where the music is intended to express the mood of a particular place.

[regriba]

As to the definition of Scandinavia/the North: being a Dane myself, I am quite sure that, to the inhabitants of the region, Scandiniavia is Norway, Sweden and Denmark, and the North/the Nordic countries then consists of these three countries plus Finland and Iceland. But it seems to me that this spirit of this topic is to include all five countries.

As to the influence of the Nordic composers mentioned: Gade was quite well known in Europe, but he turned his back on the Nordic style after a few early works like the "Ossian" overture and the first symphony, to adopt a more mainstream European idiom. Berwald was little known outside his native country, as were composers like J. P. E. Hartmann, who aimed at a consciously Northern style. So I think the best bet for an influential Nordic composer before Sibelius is Grieg. His friend Julius Röntgen has already been mentioned. I can think of a few others:

Some of Sigfrid Karg-Elert's piano music is certainly inspired by Grieg. The suite "Aus dem Norden" almost sounds like an unknown work by the Norwegian himself. And Delius, who was also a friend of Grieg, wrote a number of works inspired by the North, e.g.  Paa Vidderne and Over the Hills and Far Away.

[sdtom]

Alan,
Where would you put Glazunov's "Finnish Fantasy." I would think that it would fit. A non Scandinavian composer who wrote about the north.
Tom

[LateRomantic75]

I think Glazunov's Finnish Fantasy could definitely fit here, as well as his Finnish Sketches!

Also, thanks to regriba for his informative and illuminating post

[LateRomantic75]

Lest there be any further confusion about what this thread entails, I will define more clearly what I would like to be discussed in this thread:

Works relating to Icelandic, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish, or Finnish subjects (whether they be folk music, literature, or nature) written by composers of nationalities other than the five listed above

Hope that helps

[britishcomposer]

Some of Sigfrid Karg-Elert's piano music is certainly inspired by Grieg. The suite "Aus dem Norden" almost sounds like an unknown work by the Norwegian himself.

I am glad you mentioned Karg-Elert's "Aus dem Norden". I am touched by these pieces despite - or is it because of - the fact that they are so strongly influenced by Grieg.
The influence of Grieg on later generations of composers shouldn't be underestimated. (Stephen Hough for example suggested a Grieg influence in Carl Frühlings fine Clarinet Trio.)

I am not much of an expert in Karg-Elert and would be very interested to know if there are other pieces which are similarly indebted to Grieg.
But perhaps this requests deflects the subject of this thread too much?

[LateRomantic75]

Halvorsen's orchestral works (recorded by Chandos and Simax) show the influence of Grieg, as well as Tchaikovsky in lighter mode. They are highly enjoyable, but without Grieg's inspired melodic talent.

[britishcomposer]

I am not much of an expert in Karg-Elert and would be very interested to know if there are other pieces which are similarly indebted to Grieg.
But perhaps this requests deflects the subject of this thread too much?

I should have been more specific. What I wanted to say is: are there other pieces by Karg-Elert which are similarly indebted to Grieg! 

[LateRomantic75]

Oh, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding! From what I've read, I gather Karg-Elert's main influences were Reger, Scriabin, and Impressionism. His style has often been described as "Art Noveau" and he apparently thought of himself as an outsider. I've read somewhere that he composed orchestral works, but only his chamber and piano/organ/harmonium works have been recorded. I'd look into those CPO recordings, but many of them are OOP and are selling at high prices.

I digress!

[Alan Howe]

Why assume that anything in music constitutes northernness? Many would say that the OP is based on the falsity that music is "about" anything other than itself.

Well, as soon as influences from national folk idioms are employed, the music in question clearly acquires an external referent - in other words, it's about more than itself - or at least, it refers to something outside itself or absorbs within itself something external. For example, Sibelius' 2nd Symphony may be pure music (in that it has no evident programme), but its idiom clearly has writers referring beyond the music qua music in order to come to grips with its essential character, e.g:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/Programme_Notes/sibelius_sym2.htm

[Gauk]

Halvorsen's orchestral works (recorded by Chandos and Simax) show the influence of Grieg, as well as Tchaikovsky in lighter mode. They are highly enjoyable, but without Grieg's inspired melodic talent.

He's Norwegian, so he doesn't count.

[LateRomantic75]

I was just was going off on a tangent...

[Alan Howe]

That was the problem!

[LateRomantic75]

Since when is going off on a tangent a federal offense?