Schubert adaptations/orchestrations

[Balapoel]

After perusing my collection of Schubert adaptations, I listened again to Liszt's version of the Wanderer fantasy for piano and orchestra. Not knowing in detail Liszt's relationship to Raff with respect to orchestrations, I was wondering if the community could enlighten me as to possible influence of Raff on this orchestration?

Also, on a related note, there is a fantastic orchestration by Andy Stein of the String Quartet in d minor (Death and the Maiden). Youtube has a couple of versions for those that want to sample it. Highly recommended.

[LateRomantic75]

I have the Andy Stein orchestration of Death and the Maiden on a Naxos CD (coupled with a completed Unfinished), and it is indeed fantastic!

An orchestral expansion of the Arpeggione Sonata has been recorded multiple times. I am not sure who arranged it, though.

[eschiss1]

Re Schubert/Stein...

The one published ca.1998 and recorded on Naxos on 2009?- is that the one that extends/adds a series of drum taps and/tremolo whatnot to the last bar of the quartet? (I know I heard part - at least two movements - of a full-orchestration of the D minor quartet broadcast on a New York radio station a few months back, I think, but I forget if it was this one. Fairly sure; recordings of full-orchestra completions of this work aren't recorded every day.) I'd be the first (ok, no longer the first, but...) to agree that adaptation has to have the goal of producing a successful work for the new medium, never an exact but unidiomatic and unenjoyable-except-to-the-original-fans transcription of the original work into the new genre/medium/orchestration/whathaveyou, and that very subjective choices have to be made- but still- I'll give the whole thing a chance and see if it works better in full than it did in part, which was "not well".

[eschiss1]

Other Schubert orchestrations to take account of, I suppose, minor and larger, include

* maybe Weingartner's (and later Newbould's) of the sketches of his E major symphony (orchestration and completion?) (but this may be a different category altogether.)
* Quite a few orchestrations by Liszt, not just the Wanderer...
* Arrangements of Erlkönig for orchestra by different composers, including also Amtsberg (Erlkönig : Ouverture [mit Benutzung eines Motivs von F. Schubert, für grosses Orchester]) (published 1861. Now rare work, Worldcat lists only a copy at the Central Library of Zürich)
* "Introduction et Variations brillantes sur un Thême très-favori (Trauerwalzer von Schubert) p. Violon avec Orchestre." by Pechatschek, Op.28, pub.1829 (hrm- more a derived work, rather, since it's variations on Schubert- well, worth considering separately somewhere at another point under "Schubert's influence", not that one doubts that!) (sorry. A composer we've heard more about, Ludvig Schunke- actually, do we have a thread about him?... - also wrote a set of Schubert variations of much the same sort on the same theme.)
*"Op.33. 6 deutsche Tänze, f. Orch. bearb. v. W. Abert", pub.1898/99.
*" Ständchen (Leise flehen meine Lieder) einger. v. Bernhard Triebel f. Salon-Orch.", pub.1900.
*"Op. 35. Variationen f. Pfte zu 4 Hdn, f. Orch. bearb. v. Th. Gouvy." pub.1885 (HMB) (possibly earlier; HMB is not the place to look for publication dates for French composers if Bibliographie de la France can provide any information, will check there too, later. Yes, I'm sure, that Gouvy )

[FBerwald]

Weingartner's orchestration of the E Major Symphony is i believe true to the score. His own 6th "La Tragica" [in spite of many people having an issue with the name although I find it perfectly suitable!] is his tribute to Schubert, the scherzo is taken from the score of the unfinished Symphony's projected 3rd movement. I believe Weingartner provided the second trio. This is truly the way to salute another composer !!!!
I would also like to say here [purely a personal opinion..] when we are dealing with Larger than life personalities like Liszt or Brahms[eg..] we need to take into account that these composers are in the end of the day normal human beings like you and I and as such have idiosyncrasies, and quirks like everyone that many a times lead to... shall we say not-the-best-of-judgements at times. Look at Brahms and his dislike of Heinrich von Herzogenberg or his saying that Rott had no talent! Lizst and his relationship to Raff should be looked in such a light. I admit to being a Raff fan [atic? afterall Raff is the epoch of this forum!] .... anyways I admit that Raff might have not been the best person to get along with.... much is written about Raff's "frustration and resentment" of Liszt, but let us look at this from another angle. Liszt might have not [initially] been a great orchestrator [or may be wasn't interested in orchestration  but wanted to concentrate on piano compositions!] when he came into contact with Raff and so he might have felt a little resentment at Raff's skills! Possible.... I say there is definite influence or Raff on Liszt's [at least initial] orchestration! But then again I could be wrong 

[Balapoel]

Thanks for the responses. I was mainly interested in the Raff-Liszt connection, but I couldn't help adding in the quartet orchestration. Eric, you should definitely check it out - in my opinion it works in every movement. Spurred on by this, I checked out other adaptations - because Schubert is just a wealth of melodic, harmonic treatment - and I wanted to see versions (as Joachim did) that allowed for a broader canvas.

In addition to those mentioned:
Several piano sonatas completed (D279, D571, D613, D625, and D840)
Sonata in C (D916b) movements completed

Joseph Joachim's orchestration of the Grand Duo, D812 (doesn't quite work for me)
Felix Mottl's orchestration of the Fantasia in f minor, D940 (quite mild)
Carl Reinecke's orchestration of Der Hirt auf dem Felsen (beautiful)
Gaspar Cassado's orchestration of the Arpeggione sonata, D821 (I've only heard this a few times, but the orchestration seems pedestrian)

Of those I haven't heard:
Frederick Stock's orchestration of the String Quintet in C, D956
Dmitri Kabalevsky's orchestration of the Fantasia in f minor, D940

[eschiss1]

The one I've heard most often, maybe, is (Anton) Webern's treatment of several assorted German dances for piano... (for those who don't know it, no, he does not try to make it sound the least bit like his own later music in any way shape or form... unlike his orchestration of that Bach Ricercar, which is a bit surreal, though I like it very much.)

[Gauk]

Weingartner's orchestration of the E Major Symphony is i believe true to the score. His own 6th "La Tragica" [in spite of many people having an issue with the name although I find it perfectly suitable!] is his tribute to Schubert, the scherzo is taken from the score of the unfinished Symphony's projected 3rd movement. I believe Weingartner provided the second trio. This is truly the way to salute another composer !!!!

Holbrooke also produced a symphony based on the incomplete "Unfinished" symphony's scherzo.

[FBerwald]

I agree but its more Holbrooke than Schubert!

[Jonathan]

Going back to the Schubert / Liszt Wanderer Fantasy, I've checked and Liszt orchestrated this in 1851.  At the time, Liszt was still working with Raff so it is possible that he was influenced in some way.  Note all the Symphonic Poems and his other orchestral works were revised extensively before publication and so the influence of Raff would have been earlier in their evolution to the final, completed versions which we know today.  I also found out that Raff only had input into the first 5 Symphonic Poems, after which Liszt was happy enough with his skills to orchestrate on his own (although Raff or Conradi had nothing to do whatsoever with the orchestral work from 1841 which is a Hungarian March and that sounds fine to me!).

I like the Mottl orchestration of the F minor fantasy but was unaware of the others mentioned (aside from the Liszt ones).  I have a recording of the completion of the "Relic" Sonata by Brian Newbould and I think it works very well (it's on Toccata).

[TerraEpon]

* Arrangements of Erlkönig for orchestra by different composers, including also Amtsberg (Erlkönig : Ouverture [mit Benutzung eines Motivs von F. Schubert, für grosses Orchester]) (published 1861. Now rare work, Worldcat lists only a copy at the Central Library of Zürich)

Quite a number of song orchestrations -- in fact I have two separate discs of them and there's minimal overlap. Aside from Liszt, there's also Berlioz, Reger, Brahms, Webern, Offenbach and Britten.

[Balapoel]

I should add that there are two orchestrations of the Grand Duo, D812:
Joseph Joachim - which has been criticized as a bit bloated, and not in the style of Schubert's other orchestral pieces.
Another recent one is by
Raymond Leppard, in the late 1980s I believe (it premiered in 1990) ,where he tried to make the sound world more Schubertian. I have recordings of both, and I think I like Leppard's better.

[eschiss1]

Well, taking "two" for "at least two". Worldcat lists a third Grand Duo orchestration by Leif Kayser (1919-2001). (I know nothing about the orchestration, though. Hrm. Ok, dated 1941- ok, aside from that.)

(And a 4th by the still alive Karl Kroeger, in manuscript? q.v.)

[John H White]

I've a feeling that Schubert, these days, can hardly by called an unsung composer. Mind you, I'm still a keen fan of his and find this current thread really worthwhile.

[LateRomantic75]

We mustn't forget about Mahler's powerful orchestration (for string orchestra) of Death and the Maiden, recorded by Franz Welser-Most on an EMI CD and coupled with Schreker's Chamber Symphony.