Remarkable unsung late classical symphonies

[Alan Howe]

An unremarkable work by a remarkable man.

[Alan Howe]

I'd suggest a really joyous work, the Symphony No. 1 in C (1812) by Philipp Jakob Riotte (1776-1856):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwSl-El4NCM

[semloh]

I am a little lost with this thread because I really don't understand what is meant by "late classical". The common practice is to give 1820 as the beginning of the romantic period, so I suppose that "late classical" would be music composed, say 1790-1820? 

[Alan Howe]

I'd say that was correct, Colin.

[semloh]

Thanks, Alan! That's clear enough. 

In that case, I'll say a word in favour of the neglected Symphony in D major by Bellini, written when he was a young man, per Grove (although I can't find an exact date). Maybe not especially "remarkable", but interestingly scored, and looking forward to the operatic style ... and half bad for a teenager!

[Alan Howe]

Try these very attractive sounding symphonies by Theodor von Schacht (1748-1823) on a new cpo CD:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Theodor-von-Schacht-Symphonien-C-Dur-Es-Dur/hnum/4916783

[Alan Howe]

I can confirm that the von Schacht CD is an absolutely superb release - very well played by the Taiwanese orchestra and stunningly well recorded, with clarity, sonority and impact in equal measure. The two major works here are the Haydn-influenced C major and E flat major symphonies which both run to getting on for half an hour. Unfortunately, the liner notes give no details of composition dates (I would guess somewhere between 1790 and the early 1800s), but these are very much late classical works - with some very arresting features indeed, such as the incorporation of the minor-key introduction to the first movement of the C major work into a passage later on in the same movement - a most dramatic and unexpected episode. Von Schacht is also clearly adept at devising surprising key sequences, so that the music is never boring. I'm no expert on the music of this period, but I'd say these were important discoveries - and they give the sense that Beethoven's sound-world is not all that far away.

[Friesner]

Hi there.  I'm new.  I was browsing around the 'Net yesterday looking for information on the symphonies of Josef Netzer (recordings of which I have on order) and came across this forum; then, in running down the various current threads, I saw this one.  A perfect fit with one of my major emphases in music!  I note that, of all the works mentioned thus far in the thread, I own recordings of all but three.  The exceptions:   E.T.A.Hoffmann (have heard it, but don't own it, and don't think it's worth the exorbitant prices being asked for old copies these days); Anton Eberl (didn't even know these had been recorded, and I now see I've been overlooking a treasure trove by Concerto Köln which I ought to have snapped up aeons ago; why, it even includes the spectacular early Sturm-und-Drang g minor thing by Anton Fils, not "romantic" (late 1750s) but everybody ought to hear it!); and Theodor von Schacht (I know the composer from his clarinet concerti, and will order the symphonies as soon as the disc is released here in the 'States).

At any rate, glad to be here, will be poking around here and there, and in fact I think I'll go do a second post mentioning a few things I have that some of you might want to obtain for yourselves, representing to me some of the other "remarkable" late classical works I know.

[Friesner]

Post No. 2 today:  A few 'remarkable' (to me, in one way or another) additions to the lists already in place:

Joseph Wölfl:  Symphonies in C and g minor, from 1803 and c.1808.  (The latter dedicated to Cherubini  )   A rather odd composer to make the 'remarkable' lists because most of his other works known to me - and I have quite a few - are fundamentally pretty salon things, pleasant, fun for a while, but ultimately fairly empty.  But these two symphonies - he wrote a third which only survives in piano score - are quite a change.  Dramatic outbursts, very advanced use of winds, strong rhythmic drive, and really a fine sense of melody (which is what salon composers have to have even when they're not in the salon at the moment) - well worth knowing.  Warning:  The only recording is on the label Caro Mitis, which is Russian-made; maybe see about getting it now, in case there's an embargo because of the current Ukraine business?  Disc also includes the Grand Duo for cello/piano, the only other Wölfl work I know of any serious power.  (And as I said I have a few:  Two SQs, 3 PCs, 17 piano sonatas, 3 piano trios, and 3 duos for harp/piano - some things have their moments, but not on the level above described.)

Friedrich Witt:  Symphonies "Nos. 6 and 9" of 1808 and 1818.  No. 6 is the "Turkish."  From an MD&G disc conducted by Rosetti specialist Johannes Moesus.  These incidentally are Nos. 6 and 9 of a run of 9 published later in Witt's career; he had written another 14 in the 1790s, of which one has its own level of fame - it's the sometime-named "Jena" symphony long ascribed as a juvenile work of Beethoven, until somebody noticed that the first three movements are nothing more than a crude rewriting of the parallel movements of Haydn's 97th, which Beethoven couldn't have seen until 1793, by which year he was far and away beyond any such travesties.  (The finale, oddly enough, is a much better bird - and not repackaged from Papa Joe!)  Later they found another manuscript that settled things.  But the present "6&9" are in no way crude drivel; the Sixth with its Turkish battery is a little heavy on the noise and correspondingly light on the depth of construction, but it's still a worthy second-tier entrant.  "No. 9" is much stronger; you'll hear immediately the hints of "Don Giovanni" and the Beethoven 9th - although Beethoven postdates Witt - but they are woven quickly into a highly original and well-structured minor gem which in sum actually dances between a late Sturm-und-Drang reminiscence and a precursor to the heart of romanticism (late Mendelssohn and bits of Schumann come to mind, maybe even the Brahms serenades for a phrase or two).  Witt also has a nice sense of a well-made tune, which glaringly he did NOT have back in the days of that 'Jena' thing.

Bernhard Romberg:  Three symphonies incl. a Funeral Sym. recorded on the label Ars as "Forgotten Treasures Vol. 5."  The symphonies date from c.1811, c.1813 and "unknown" (pub. 1830 but thought to have been written much earlier).  Romberg was a cello virtuoso and much respected as such all over the continent; his symphonic works would therefore seem to be quite secondary, but in fact there is a lot of very forward-looking writing especially in the E-Flat ("No.2") which has modulations and part-writing that are a generation ahead of their time.  The Funeral Symphony is a stunning successor to, e.g., the more famous Kraus thing of 20 years earlier; and frankly I prefer Romberg first because he doesn't spend as much time plumbing maudlin depths, and in fact even injects some lighter moods (though hardly jollity!) into the finale; and second because it doesn't drag out as seemingly endlessly as Kraus's does overall.

Christian Westerhoff:  Symphony in E-Flat from 1796, combined on a CPO disc with two concerti involving the clarinet.  Okay, let me be honest here; the real brilliance of this recording is the clarinet concerto, with the double bassoon/clarinet work a close second.  The symphony - apparently his only one - is several notches above merely competent, but it really is no revelatory parting of the clouds; call it very, very nice, and leave it at that.  The disc is also by way of a memorial to the late Dieter Klöcker, whose musicological ferretings mostly on behalf of his instrument have turned up so very many gems; Westerhoff was apparently his final rediscovery before he died, and the soloist on this disc (Sebastian Manz) gives us a really moving tribute to Klöcker in the booklet. 

     Enough for a novice post-person for today; I apologize for the prattling, but I note the moderators keep whimpering for detail, so I thought maybe I'd sate their desires for a while.  Go buy all those things I've recommended.  You will not be unhappy.  (Unless you're in this thread by mistake....) 

[Alan Howe]

Welcome, Friesner. Great posts!

[Mark Thomas]

... and thanks for all the detail. I shall moderate my whimpers for a while.

[eschiss1]

I remember a Woelfl cello/piano/percussion duo (the cellist was, as I recall, asked to play an ad lib percussion part- or may have decided to do so without it being in the score, actually?) that was fairly good and have enjoyed his music more or less but more rather than less (and from score also Witt), but that's my opinion. I think the symphonies you're referring to above according to Wikipedia would be his Opp.40 and 41. Anyhow, thanks!

Hrm. Hadn't seen this before.  Woelfl Society.

[Friesner]

Wölfl society - thanks.  I peeked.  My German is rather shaky, but I got some from it.  Did you notice they claim 7 symphonies whereas the disc I suggested says just 3?  Well, but in that era anything is possible; look how many they've added to (or subtracted from) Mozart over recent years.  Best guess, we've heard all we're gonna hear from the Wölfl lists, no matter how many.

There are three composers whose Societies I try to follow with some regularity, even though I haven't spent the money to join - that's for wealthy patrons and/or scholars, seems to me - but it's nice to keep up with new releases, progress in dating or identifying, possibly useful books, etc.  The three are Antonio Rosetti, Anton Bruckner and Paul Juon.  I'm absolutely passionate about them all.  (In Bruckner's case there are lots of societies; I try to follow the U.S. one, but it frequently quotes from the British one so I often get both in a sense.) 

In a way I don't really need a Bruckner Society anyway.  There are no undiscovered or unrecorded works that matter; only new versions or editions of the ones we've had all along.  And there's a web site - all you Brucknerians know this already, yes? - that keeps up to date on every Bruckner recording ever made, every version, every reissue on a different label, etc., etc. - a phenomenal undertaking.  He doesn't do the vocal works, just the orchestral; but, with a few exceptions, that's all I care about anyway.

Rosetti doesn't fit in this forum, so forget him.  Juon really, really does, and while the International Juon Society doesn't seem to do much except print lists of concerts in Switzerland and south Germany, it's still useful in some ways.  Last year they added a complete listing of all Juon's works that have been recorded, with recording data and (European) availability - very useful to the completist fanatic in me.  Now, if only they could kick someone into action and get the violin concertos recorded at last.  And the early symphonies?

Bruckner address:  www.abruckner.com

Juon address:  www.juon.org

And now, if you'll excuse me, I have a new CD in the mail today.  Schmidt-Kowalski tone poems.  Yum.

[thalbergmad]

The Wolfl or Woelfl symphonies are amongst the few non piano works that I have heard, as I have a deep love for the composer and play his works often.

He might well be Beethoven without the stress and he might well be looking back to Clementi and not forward to the romantics, but I cannot cope with the "pretty salon things" comment.

I am going to start up the WDL (Wolfl Defence League). Anyone can join.

Thal

[jerfilm]

Friesner, you might try Google Chrome or Google translate or one of the other free translation programs to read other language websites.  Mostly they work pretty well. 

And welcome to the forum and thanks for your comments.  I immediately went looking for the rest of the Wolfl symphonys that I didn't have.

Jerry