Time-wasting violinist composers

[Alan Howe]

Didn't Mahler write a Huge Violin concerto?? I remember reading about it somewhere!

Let's leave this one until next April, please!

[Kriton]

Right, the one in F Sharp!

I do have an interesting anecdote about this. Years ago, I contacted Universal (responsible for Deutsche Grammophon) and told them about the Mahler 'release'. They called around, only to find that the web site on which it was being discussed was an Asian one. They decided - oblivious as to what kind of historical and musical importance a Mahler violin concerto might have - not to persue the matter of distributing the CD over here, writing me that it was 'probably an Asian release only'...

The people who 'run' the CD business nowadays...

[peter_conole]

Hi all

I did a recount - the number of recorded performances of violin concertos composed in the 19th Century is probably closer to 160 than 170. That is very grim indeed,  because as mentioned in a previous posting, thousands were composed in that glorious, unsurpassed musical century.

Perhaps it is time to take stock. Mark and Alan may wish to offer comment on what I am about to suggest, one way or another. I suspect they will agree it will make sense to get things in proportion and perspective. On those themes, it is worth noting that after the maestro Joseph Joachim had established himself as the great violinist of the late 19th century, as many as 1000 new concertos may have have been dedicated to him alone over the next 30-40 years.

It will come as no surprise to a few forum members that I have been studying the development and history of the 19th century romantic concerto as a musical form for quite some time.

If it is deemed worthwhile, I will list all of the violin concertos composed during the critical period c1860 to 1900 which I know have been recorded one way or another. It could be a useful reality check - we have HUGE reasons to rage about the musical vandalism of the last 100 years.  If folk could add some missing works, it would be wonderful.

Here is a heretical comment: yes, World War II was a disaster for some German and Italian ( and in other countries?) music publishing houses and musical institutions, but I do not believe all (or even most) of the stories put about regarding the 'great fires' in response to requests for scores. Let us not underestimate the indifference, lack of interest, laziness, unwillingness to help, vandalism and sheer incompetence of some musically ignorant employees and even some public archivists and librarians. Believe me, I know what I am talking about because of  bitter local experience in a country that was not bombed.

regards
Peter

[violinconcerto]

Hello!

I just read your discussion about recordings of violin concertos composed between 1800 and 1900 which are recorded. My website only covers the years from 1894-1900, but I received other recordings as well over the years which are not listed on my website. Maybe that is of interest for anyone, so I made a list of recordings I own (I did not list the common ones).
To whom it may concern:

Accolay: VC 1
Arensky: VC
Aulin: VC1, VC2
A.Becker: Concert piece
Berwald: VC
Cui: Suite concertante
A. Dietrich: VC
H. Ernst: VC
Fabritius: VC
E. Franck: VC1, VC2
Godard: VC1, VC2
Goetz: VC
Goldmark: VC1
E. Hartmann: VC
Joachim: VC2, VC3
Lehar: VCtino
H. Leonard: VC4
Lvov: VC
Mackenzie: VC
Monasterio: VC
Moszkowski: VC
Pacius: VC
Pott: VC
Raff: VC1, VC2
Rubinstein: VC
Svendsen: VC
J. White: VC

and some other works for V+O named other than VC.

I hope that is at least of some interest for anyone.

Best,
Tobias

[Ilja]

Let's not forget that because of the relation of the violin to the orchestra, it's a damned sight more difficult to write a competent violin concerto than one for piano. The piano has the advantage of a natural distinction in tone with the orchestra, so you can pretty much do what you like. With the violin, it's very difficult to keep the soloists lines separate from the orchestra because the orchestra is chock full of other violins. There are devices (varying tempi, or alternating the soloist and the string sections), but these can lead to frustrating results. In my experience, there are some very good concertos for violin and a devastating amount of mediocre ones. Lack of composing skill easily kills your violin concerto, whereas the piano concerto is inherently more tolerant.

[Amphissa]

 
The list of uninspired VCs composed by violinists is indeed disheartening. Too often we must sit through long stretches of sawing and orchestral humming, just to get from one cadenza to another. The thought of sitting through any Viotti concerto again was rather unpleasant.  And Rode did not do much for me.

I could add more to the list. For example, thinking of this thread, I listened to the Berwald VC last night, because even though I had listened to it in the past, I really could not remember what it was like. And I like a lot of Berwald's music. Now, the next day, I can say the same thing. It leaves no impression at all.

However, there were a few other violinists who wrote violin concertos worth hearing -- at least for me.  When I'm in the mood, for example, I enjoy pulling out recordings of concertos written by Wieniawski or Hubay.

What is equally interesting to me is some violinists who were good composers, but who never wrote a violin concerto. For example, to my knowledge, Josef Suk never wrote a violin concerto or even any extended work for violin and orchestra. Yet his Asrael Symphony and Serenade for Strings showed him to be quite a capable composer.

I ran across a violinist/composer who I had not previously heard of, and have heard nothing by. Can someone tell me about Jan Kubelik, father of the great conductor, who was apparently quite the virtuoso violinist and wrote 6 violin concertos and cadenzas for the concertos of Brahms and Beethoven? How could I have never heard of this man?

[Alan Howe]

Actually, Josef Suk did write a virtual VC - the 24-minute long Fantasy in G minor, Op.24 of 1902-3. It is a magnificent work - try the sample here...

http://www.amazon.com/Dvorak-Suk-Music-Violin-Antonin/dp/B00000DLUQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1276297263&sr=1-2

[JimL]

As in any repertoire there are some bad apples which make it difficult to sit through an entire work (Not to mention painful).. but I think Max Bruch's concerted Violin works are wonderful atonements for the sins of the banal "Violin Concerto".

A heartfelt second to this opinion.  I finally picked up a new 3rd VC (the Chandos with Hickox conducting and Mordkovitch fiddling).  It was hard to decide which version to get, but I didn't have a Bruch S1, so I decided to get that pairing.  I now have all 3 Bruch concertos again.  I may have some doubts about Lydia Mordkovitch's ability to keep up with the work's formidable demands (my old lost LP with Accardo was much more technically assured), but, as has been mentioned before (I believe by Alan) the stature of this work as repertory-worthy is beyond question.  I also think the 1st Symphony is one of the finest "1sts" in the symphonic field.  But I can't find that old thread... 

[Glazier]

Vieuxtemps 4 is a very entertaining work.  In what movement did you find the donkey-braying effect? 

On another listening I found the offending passage. Unfortunately there isn't a score in IMSLP. There are four movements

1 Recitative
2 Slow
3 Quick
4 March

The passage in question is in no 3. The movt consists of an initial tune sounding like a mordent study. Then there is a musette type passage then the quick tune again.

The braying bit is at the end of the quick part both times, on the way down from a very high note.

The recording is perfect in every way - Perelman and Barenboim with the Paris Orch.

The slow movt is wonderful. I won't throw my scratchy cassette recording away.

[FBerwald]

A heartfelt second to this opinion.  I finally picked up a new 3rd VC (the Chandos with Hickox conducting and Mordkovitch fiddling).  It was hard to decide which version to get, but I didn't have a Bruch S1, so I decided to get that pairing.  I now have all 3 Bruch concertos again.  I may have some doubts about Lydia Mordkovitch's ability to keep up with the work's formidable demands (my old lost LP with Accardo was much more technically assured), but, as has been mentioned before (I believe by Alan) the stature of this work as repertory-worthy is beyond question.  I also think the 1st Symphony is one of the finest "1sts" in the symphonic field.  But I can't find that old thread...

Dear JimL,
   I also believe that the definitive Bruch is the Salvatore Accardo with Kurt Masur (My fav after Neeme Jarvi) and
Gewandhausorchester Leipzig - It has all the Three Violin concertos plus the four movement serenade and Scottish Fantasy.  The Complete Bruch Symphonies (also Kurt Masur and Gewandhausorchester Leipzig and Salvadoe Accardo) has the rest of Bruchs Violin concerted pieces namely the Romance in a minor Op.42 (intended as the Ist movement of a Violin Concerto that he lost interest after writing this movement!),  Adagio Appasionato Op. 57 (Sure to bring tears to your eyes), In Memorium Op.65 and Konzertstück in F sharp minor Op. 84. There is also Romance for Viola and Orchestra in F major (a very sadly neglected piece!!!).

.... thinking of this thread, I listened to the Berwald VC last night, because even though I had listened to it in the past, I really could not remember what it was like. And I like a lot of Berwald's music. Now, the next day, I can say the same thing. It leaves no impression at all...

I think the problem with the Berwald Violin concerto is that it lacks the earnestness of the Symphonies and the Quirky Piano concerto but nevertheless the concerto is quite musical and quite laid back.

[JimL]

I've only heard the Bruch Konzertstuck once or twice.  IMHO he should have composed a finale for it, maybe transposed the slow movement and called it his 4th VC.  It's among his finest works, but I think its unusual form works against it.  Konzertstucke get neglected an awful lot nowadays.

[Alan Howe]

Berwald's VC is, of course, an immature work, written ca. 1821. Hardly typical. It's a shame he didn't write another after, say, 1840.

The Accardo/Masur Bruch sets are excellent value, although you can do just as well or better elsewhere. Certainly Conlon's symphonies on EMI, very cheap these days, have more spine than Masur's, and there are one or two other very fine performances of VC3 around - e.g. Janicke/Stenz on EBS and Fedotov/Yablonsky on Naxos. Nevertheless, for a comprehensive overview of Bruch, the two Philips doubles are hard to beat overall.

Perlman in Vieuxtemps is certainly an example of superb fiddling - in the Heifetz class, and no cuts! The recording of the orchestra, however, is now starting to sound rather elderly. I shall be interested to read the reviews of the new Hyperion CD...

[JimL]

Vieuxtemps 4 is a very entertaining work.  In what movement did you find the donkey-braying effect? 

On another listening I found the offending passage. Unfortunately there isn't a score in IMSLP. There are four movements

1 Recitative
2 Slow
3 Quick
4 March

The passage in question is in no 3. The movt consists of an initial tune sounding like a mordent study. Then there is a musette type passage then the quick tune again.

The braying bit is at the end of the quick part both times, on the way down from a very high note.

The recording is perfect in every way - Perelman and Barenboim with the Paris Orch.

The slow movt is wonderful. I won't throw my scratchy cassette recording away.

I think you mean Martinon, not Barenboim, unless he recorded it twice with the same orchestra and different conductors.  I know the spot you're talking about now.  It's right after that high trill.  The violin has a grace-noted chromatic descent from the trill that does sound a little like a donkey.  I think it's a deliberate effect on the part of Vieuxtemps, since the trio section has a sort of pastoral feel to it.  I think he had some sort of rustic festival in mind when he composed it, complete with farm animals providing commentary!

[Alan Howe]

Perlman is definitely partnered by Barenboim in Vieuxtemps (on EMI). Martinon is the conductor for Perlman in the other pieces on the same CD.
Easy to check, Jim...

[JimL]

The Accardo/Masur Bruch sets are excellent value, although you can do just as well or better elsewhere. Certainly Conlon's symphonies on EMI, very cheap these days, have more spine than Masur's, and there are one or two other very fine performances of VC3 around - e.g. Janicke/Stenz on EBS and Fedotov/Yablonsky on Naxos. Nevertheless, for a comprehensive overview of Bruch, the two Philips doubles are hard to beat overall.

I'm happy enough with Mordkovitch and Hickox, although, as I commented in a PM, either Mordkovitch has intonation problems or she plays with just intonation like Joachim did.  And the tempo fluctuations in the 'largamente' passages of the first movement of Bruch VC 3 make me wonder if she was having trouble with all those abundant multiple stops.  However, it could just have easily been an interpretive decision for dramatic effect.  It's a pretty good performance anyway.  Wonder where I'll be able to pick up a Bruch 2nd and 3rd symphony without duplicating what I have?  Come to think of it, I also need a Scottish Fantasy...