Raff symphonies from Chandos

[Alan Howe]

...much as I love Brahms too, of course. But it's Raff's sheer dynamism that has won me over...

[adriano]

One should never compare composers, but, since Brahms has now to be faced with Raff (which makes me shudder), let me write my own personal opinion; it may give the start to a new interesting discussion.
Alan, compared to Raff's, Brahms "dynamism" may be not dynamically "sheer" as much as you need it for yourself, but for me, for example, it is sheer enough and in all its other aspects worlds apart - and above! Do you know Brahms' chamber music and his songs? I find some really and great "sheer dynamism" in there - if we should look for that! I adore Raff's music for sure, but I would take but one or two single of his pieces to my desert island, whilst I would need to take Brahms' opera omnia with me, in oder to survive. This would make of my island a widely spaced, deeply emotional, transcendental and long lasting paradise. Of course I love Raff's music very much, but I feel that it never reaches the dimensions and wide horizons of Brahms'. There is not a single song, not a single trio or sonata by Raff, whis is superior to those of Brahms. Not to speak about the Symphonies: Raff's still remain episodic and descriptive Romantic characteristic suites, enlarged with symphonic technique (and this very well done!). Raff knew what his audiences wanted (that's why he used to incorporate thrilling marches to his Symphonies, they were always repeated at the end of the concert); Brahms knew that his audiences would feel challenged - and made no compromises as far as his artistic needs were concerned (That is why I champion Fritz Brun!). He considered his music more than just music - like Beethoven. Raff you just can enjoy and relax and even feel surprized from time to time. Brahms's not "pleasantly" sounding to many music lovers, because it needs more concentration, more personal engagement: there you must decide to go inside yourself and think with the music. Brahms' "German Requiem" alone is superior to all what has been written by dear old Raff - hope to to cause a scandal by saying this. But you have started the theme, so let's come out with personal feelings :-)

[Alan Howe]

Actually, I agree with you on the whole, Adriano. I think that's a fair, balanced and accurate assessment. For me, though, having come from Brahms (I have most of his music on CD, apart from the lieder) to Raff, what has captivated me is the latter's sheer athleticism. And I find it everywhere in Raff. Oh, and by the way, I'd say that Raff's Piano Quintet compares with anything in Brahms' chamber output. And the Piano Quartets aren't far behind either. And the 1st String Quartet is superior to any of Brahms' three. Heresy, I know!
But, like you and Brun, I do yearn for music with more 'challenge' - which is why my favourite three composers are Rufinatscha, Draeseke and Wilhelm Berger. Perhaps after you have completed your magnificent Brun cycle you might consider Berger in particular?

[adriano]

Hi Alan, and thanks for your prompt statement. I see, we will never be in need to argue  Good for music is that it can involve one's personality (and even profoundly influence it, as it was in my case), so that everybody is free to feel it in his own way. Since mankind is becoming more and more uncultivated and stupid, let's enjoy this with certain feelings of superiority. We make the world better, not them. Let them play around with their mobile phones all day long, let them get drunk every night, let them play videogames or make real wars  Certainly, Raff was a master in creating good tunes, and that made him so popular at his time. This is perhaps the element which sometimes "disturbs" me a bit. One feels that he would have had almost a bad consicence by not coming up with a nice melody. On the other hand, Brahms himself would envy colleagues earning success with good tunes. Once he had heard the introduction of Johann Strauss' "Blue Danube", he said, "what a pity that this is not my own".
Wilhelm Berger, why not, but who is going to finance this? Without a 100% sponsorship you cannot do CDs anymore unless you are a world star, but they would not choose such repertoire. Would my Brun project not have been fully financed by his son, nothing would have been possible.
By the way, tonight I travel to Bratislava to record Brun's Eight Symphony...

[Alan Howe]

Great to debate with you. By the way: what do make of Raff 4? I'd say that was his finest symphony...
And have a safe and fruitful trip to Bratislava!

[eschiss1]

hrm. I'd allow that Raff's piano quintet is in the "top rank" of what I've heard of the chamber music from the mid- to late 19th century between Schumann and Brahms, more or less, give or take (-still- unfamiliar with the piano quartets and violin sonatas except for no.1, I think, though I've heard the cello sonata and most of Raff's string quartets now, I think...); but works by Brahms like his 2nd piano quartet, clarinet trio in A minor, the 2nd cello sonata and the 2 clarinet sonatas, the 2nd string quintet (probably the 1st also...), are still, pretty much, in a class of their own, at least for the period... and the 3rd string quartet too, the best of the three, which deserves to be considered separately (though I like all three of them, I'll readily admit he'd found his bearings by the third- or 30th or what have you- of his quartets- and there's much more to it, handled much better, than in the first two, though there's a whole lot to those too- just with an inelegant, strenuous, dynamic (the C minor especially, and the irony does not escape...) surface that puts people off them...*)

*Admittedly, some of the "whole lot" to the three quartets is the sort of thing that makes the hearts of writers for Groves and people like me, and people like Arnold Schoenberg in essay mode, go pitter-patter- the constant offbeat hemiolas of the 2nd quartet (a Brahms trademark, of course!), the odd non-modulation modulations of the first movement of the 1st quartet, the counterposed meters of the first movement of the 3rd...

[Alan Howe]

but works by Brahms like his 2nd piano quartet, clarinet trio in A minor, the 2nd cello sonata and the 2 clarinet sonatas, the 2nd string quintet (probably the 1st also...), are still, pretty much, in a class of their own, at least for the period... and the 3rd string quartet too

They're great works, all of them. However, I'd rate Draeseke's String Quartets as at least equal to Brahms'; in fact Draeseke's chamber output consists almost exclusively of extraordinarily individual masterpieces too...

[eschiss1]

the string quartets I admit I'm not yet as familiar with (except maybe the 3rd) but I agree that what chamber music by Draeseke I have heard is wonderful - likewise the Requiem and (yes, especially when played as on those unearthed broadcasts) the 2nd and 3rd symphonies...

[JimL]

Both Brahms and Raff were masters of counterpoint, but Raff tended to show off his grasp of it more than Brahms.  Consider the thrilling coda of the first movement of Im Walde, where Raff has the principal motives of the 2nd and 3rd themes play simultaneously, or the similar passage at the end of the In den Alpen Symphony, where motives from the previous movements are interwoven.

[adriano]

@Alan
Greetings from Bratislava,where our recordings of Brun's Eight proceed very well. It's very difficult music and I am sure to be able to deliver an equally good version as the "historical" one conducted by Brun himself. In any case, the sonics will be thrilling!
A far as Raff's Fourth is concerned, I like it very much, but find it just a bit "too much constructed" and missing a "personally artistic souffle". It's a perfect work for my brains, but it leaves me untouched in the heart, compared to some programmatic Symphonies à la Lenore" or "Im Walde". Just a personal opinion...

[Alan Howe]

Thanks - very interesting, Adriano. I find Raff 4 exhilarating: it may not ask profound questions, but it is immensely satisfying on its own terms. Glad the Brun 8 recording sessions went well.