Raff's Octet

[Gareth Vaughan]

I know we have discussed Raff's Octet on this forum before, but I recently read this dissertation:

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1006&context=musicstudent

and was astounded to find no mention of Raff at all - though Molbe and Thieriot get (very) brief references.

[Kriton]

Dear Gareth,

Thank you for bringing this dissertation to my/our attention, I'm reading it now. I have never heard of a Raff octet for strings & winds, but I do know his string octet - without double bass. And since the dissertation is focused mainly on chamber groupings for string & winds which include the double bass, I'm sure the Raff octet has no place in it. I haven't read the whole thing yet, but I didn't see, for instance, any mention of the Mendelssohn octet, either...

But perhaps Raff wrote another octet, which I do not know about?

[Gareth Vaughan]

It is true that the dissertation is concerned with Septets, Octets and Nonets for strings and winds, but I had expected some mention of the purely string octet as part of the context for these other chamber works, and the two outstanding examples in the 19th century of the string octet are by Mendelssohn (yes, I should of course have mentioned the omission of Mendelssohn) and Raff. It just struck me as odd that these two major octets should be ignored.

[Kriton]

Well, the title of the dissertation is as boring as badly chosen, and therein perhaps lies the problem. But I don't expect a dissertation on works for strings, including double bass, and winds to make any specific mention of the Raff octet. Perhaps just of the Mendelssohn work, to make clear that there are octets for strings alone (without double bass) as well.

But then again, I've never heard of the University of Nebraska and its 'Music School of Student Research, "Creative Activity" (...) and Performance'...

That said, the Raff string octet is a beautiful piece of work!

[JimL]

But then again, I've never heard of the University of Nebraska and its 'Music School of Student Research, "Creative Activity" (...) and Performance'...

Did I see that right?  You've.  Never.  Heard.  Of.  The.  University.  Of.  Nebraska?  

[Kriton]

Did I see that right?  You've.  Never.  Heard.  Of.  The.  University.  Of.  Nebraska?  

Never... But I just looked up where Nebraska is, apparently in the centre of the United States. In case I've missed something and it's also a musicological centre of importance, I really am very badly informed...

I must say, though, that I am pleasantly surprised to notice that apparently even people in far corners of the world occupy themselves with chamber music by Berwald, Farrenc & Spohr. All is not lost for the unsungs!

[JimL]

I don't know anything about musicology at UNL, but the Nebraska Cornhuskers mean a lot to anybody who knows college football!  I believe it was a former UNL chancellor who pressed for more academic funding from the state because he wanted a university the football team could be proud of!

P.S. Of course, I could be mistaken.  It might have been a chancellor of their great rivals at the University of Oklahoma at Norman...

[Kriton]

I don't know anything about musicology at UNL, but the Nebraska Cornhuskers mean a lot to anybody who knows college football!

Since we're being waaay off topic anyway: is that the kind of rugby with body armor, or the normal European football? I must admit, I don't know what a cornhusker is...

[JimL]

The former.  With helmets and pads.  And a cornhusker is, if the mascot of the team is an example, a big guy in overalls who removes the husks from corn!  Nebraska is a heavily agricultural state on the western end of the Great Plains.  It's part of what we Americans call "flyover country".

P.S. I'm astounded that you don't apparently have much in the way of intercollegiate sports in the Old World.  Don't you have college rugby (or soccer, which is what we call your football), or cricket or anything over there?  Whence comes the expression "The Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton", then?

[eschiss1]

It is true that the dissertation is concerned with Septets, Octets and Nonets for strings and winds, but I had expected some mention of the purely string octet as part of the context for these other chamber works, and the two outstanding examples in the 19th century of the string octet are by Mendelssohn (yes, I should of course have mentioned the omission of Mendelssohn) and Raff. It just struck me as odd that these two major octets should be ignored.

I'm actually not positive what octet I would place as the first "must know" after Mendelssohn's among 19th-century string octets. Enescu wrote his _in 1900_ (also at quite a young age, though age 19) or I would nominate his, I really do believe, for sheer brio, invention, among other qualities... (despite the quality of Raff's; I admit it's a subjective thing - and I admit I've only heard a few of them- Bargiel's, Raff's, Mendelssohn's, Gade's, Enescu's, perhaps a few others - to date - that I can think of.)

Eric

[Gareth Vaughan]

What makes you think we don't have "much in the way of inter-collegiate sports", Jim? We over here don't know much about yours (which seems to surprise you, but is no surprise to me); it is similarly unsurprising that you know little about ours.
And the University of Nebraska (which I had heard of) is not recommended to me by the emphasis it appears to lay on college football, perhaps to the detriment of the more academic pursuits which, presumably, are its raison d'etre.

[Kriton]

It's part of what we Americans call "flyover country".

P.S. I'm astounded that you don't apparently have much in the way of intercollegiate sports in the Old World.  Don't you have college rugby (or soccer, which is what we call your football), or cricket or anything over there?

Soccer is rather popular at our other side of the Atlantic - especially at the moment! - and there are sport societies linked with universities, but, as Gareth put it so eloquently:

(...) to the detriment of the more academic pursuits which, presumably, are its raison d'etre.

...they don't really have anything to do with the studies themselves. At least, it's like that on the continent - I don't know much about university/sports on the British Isles.

I like the expression 'flyover country', though, especially when you think several small European states would fit within its borders, and there'd still be space left... (geographically, of course)

And, on another note, although I'd never heard of the University of Nebraska, I'm not surprised to find out there is such an institution; I can very well imagine every State of the U.S. having a university - after all, it's not a small country! (again, geographically)

And, on topic:

I'm actually not positive what octet I would place as the first "must know" after Mendelssohn's among 19th-century string octets. Enescu wrote his _in 1900_ (also at quite a young age, though age 19) or I would nominate his, I really do believe, for sheer brio, invention, among other qualities... (despite the quality of Raff's; I admit it's a subjective thing - and I admit I've only heard a few of them- Bargiel's, Raff's, Mendelssohn's, Gade's, Enescu's, perhaps a few others - to date - that I can think of.)

Eric

I wish for a recording of all of Glière's string octets - I think he wrote no less than 3. But, for the time being, Mendelssohn comes 1st place, followed by Bargiel, Enescu coming in 3rd. I love the Raff, but I don't think it's on par with those - more my cup of tea than the the Gade or the Spohrs - though! But, as I already pointed out, I think (in such a dissertation) mention of just the Mendelssohn octet suffices: for me, there's a very large gap between this work, and the rest written in this form.

[eschiss1]

It's part of what we Americans call "flyover country".

P.S. I'm astounded that you don't apparently have much in the way of intercollegiate sports in the Old World.  Don't you have college rugby (or soccer, which is what we call your football), or cricket or anything over there?

Soccer is rather popular at our other side of the Atlantic - especially at the moment! - and there are sport societies linked with universities, but, as Gareth put it so eloquently:

(...) to the detriment of the more academic pursuits which, presumably, are its raison d'etre.

...they don't really have anything to do with the studies themselves. At least, it's like that on the continent - I don't know much about university/sports on the British Isles.

I like the expression 'flyover country', though, especially when you think several small European states would fit within its borders, and there'd still be space left... (geographically, of course)

And, on another note, although I'd never heard of the University of Nebraska, I'm not surprised to find out there is such an institution; I can very well imagine every State of the U.S. having a university - after all, it's not a small country! (again, geographically)

And, on topic:

I'm actually not positive what octet I would place as the first "must know" after Mendelssohn's among 19th-century string octets. Enescu wrote his _in 1900_ (also at quite a young age, though age 19) or I would nominate his, I really do believe, for sheer brio, invention, among other qualities... (despite the quality of Raff's; I admit it's a subjective thing - and I admit I've only heard a few of them- Bargiel's, Raff's, Mendelssohn's, Gade's, Enescu's, perhaps a few others - to date - that I can think of.)

Eric

I wish for a recording of all of Glière's string octets - I think he wrote no less than 3. But, for the time being, Mendelssohn comes 1st place, followed by Bargiel, Enescu coming in 3rd. I love the Raff, but I don't think it's on par with those - more my cup of tea than the the Gade or the Spohrs - though! But, as I already pointed out, I think (in such a dissertation) mention of just the Mendelssohn octet suffices: for me, there's a very large gap between this work, and the rest written in this form.

Actually- Gliere wrote three sextets and one octet... and while talking about only string octets we must omit the Spohr of course.
Eric

[Kriton]

Actually- Gliere wrote three sextets and one octet...

You're right, I stand corrected!

[chill319]

I know where you guys are coming from, but the campus in Lincoln, Nebraska is a lovely place where contributions relevant to the interests of this forum have been part of the intellectual culture for many decades. Lincoln is not where the American cowboys live. That self-selecting group prefers Washington, D.C.