Piano concertos

[JimL]

That would be a heckuva project, Chill.  I once had a Dussek concerto in my old LP collection.  It was in B-flat, and it was on an old Turnabout release (I forget the coupling).  As I recall, the orchestra was rather small, maybe a single flute and paired oboes, bassoons and horns, and there was little or no use of winds while the piano was playing in the first movement, which indicates to me that it may have been a relatively early work with ad libitum wind parts.  I now have the 1806 two-piano concerto (somewhere around here, anyway) and that is a much more substantial work.

[eschiss1]

Several of Dussek's concertos are or have been available on CD, though possibly not in robust performances:

the B-flat op22 & G minor op49 (Staier on Capriccio, released 1995, with the Tableau Marie Antoinette op.23);
the F major op. 17 and the B-flat op.40 (on Bongiovanni, 1996 CD);
the op.70 concerto (with some piano sonatas, on Supraphon, 1999);
the double-piano concerto in B-flat (on Centaur, 2004);
possibly others...
I've heard some of these recordings on Cesky Rozhlas radio (webcast).
Eric

[chill319]

I now have the 1806 two-piano concerto (somewhere around here, anyway) and that is a much more substantial work.

If memory serves that was the work with which Stephen Heller made his public debut. To my ears Heller's first sonata is full of responses to late Dussek.

In the period of Heller's greatest fame, the 1850s and 60s, he was markedly conservative. But that was not at all the case in the 1830s, when he contributed several opuses (28 especially, but also 24, 27, and 30) that were strikingly original at a time when the "competition" included Liszt, Chopin, Alkan, and Schumann, among others.  Dussek's  technical approach to the keyboard has been superseded in those thoroughly modern works, but his noble line and sense of just proportion remain.

I have some catching up to do on the Dussek concerto front. Thanks, all, for your detail.

[thalbergmad]

A couple of years ago, I spent some time playing through about 15 Dussek Concertos, but I do not remember encountering the same genius that I did with some of the Sonatas, which I would rank alongside Beethoven, notably the Op.77.

I can imagine a few of the latter Opus number concerti being recorded, but I doubt if the whole lot would be, even if performance materials still exist.

Thal

[eschiss1]

A couple of years ago, I spent some time playing through about 15 Dussek Concertos, but I do not remember encountering the same genius that I did with some of the Sonatas, which I would rank alongside Beethoven, notably the Op.77.

I can imagine a few of the latter Opus number concerti being recorded, but I doubt if the whole lot would be, even if performance materials still exist.

Thal

William Newman (The Sonata Since Beethoven, paraphrasing from poor memory...?) claimed that Dussek's invention tended to spread thinner as the number of instruments he used grew larger (i.e. that his best work is indeed in the solo sonatas, though whether he meant only the piano sonatas or whether he liked the harp sonatas as well I have no idea...) -

hrm. Even so... have only heard op.70 among the later concertos if that one (since that's the only one that's been recorded so far), but I'm sure lots of worse/less-contentful music has been recorded in quantity, so I'm not taking the bet, anyway

[thalbergmad]

]

William Newman (The Sonata Since Beethoven, paraphrasing from poor memory...?) claimed that Dussek's invention tended to spread thinner as the number of instruments he used grew larger -

That is an interesting quote, but one tends to question why that was the case.

We know the talent was there.

Thal

[JimL]

The case, gentlemen, lies in the differing social purposes of the concerto as opposed to the solo sonata, as well as probable logistical concerns especially regarding orchestras during Dussek's lifetime.

[eschiss1]

The case, gentlemen, lies in the differing social purposes of the concerto as opposed to the solo sonata, as well as probable logistical concerns especially regarding orchestras during Dussek's lifetime.

And yet (for similar reasons but a combination of others also, according to Alfred Einstein, if I remember!) Mozart's piano concertos are actually to be preferred to his solo sonatas. Ah well.
Eric

[thalbergmad]

I was thinking along similar lines, but with Czerny.

I have always valued his works for piano & orchestra above his solo works.

Thal

[eschiss1]

Actually re Czerny, the new recordings on Nimbus of his complete solo sonatas is something I ought to try to hear (I know a few of them have been recorded before, but this is the first attempt at an integral that I know of.) I'm more interested in them than in many others of his solo works, anyway... but I do agree that his piano concertos (those I've heard, and the 2-piano concerto- and the symphonies, and the chamber works) seem more substantial than many of the solo works he's most known by, anyway...
Eric

[Peter1953]

Actually re Czerny, the new recordings on Nimbus of his complete solo sonatas is something I ought to try to hear (I know a few of them have been recorded before, but this is the first attempt at an integral that I know of.)

I have Czerny's piano sonatas 1 & 3 played by Kuerti (on Analekta) and 5, 6, 8 & 9 played by Jones (on Nimbus). Of course it's a matter of taste, but to me these are all grandiose, rather complex, well-crafted sonatas of a very high calibre (especially no. 6), and far better than any symphony or piano concerto by Czerny  I've ever heard.
Eric, I can very warmly recommend these marvellous piano sonatas. If you don't know them, you will be pleasantly amazed.

[TerraEpon]

And yet (for similar reasons but a combination of others also, according to Alfred Einstein, if I remember!) Mozart's piano concertos are actually to be preferred to his solo sonatas. Ah well.
Eric

I'd certainly agree with THAT. I find most of the sonatas pretty boring...

As for Dussek, he was actually a very good composer of harp music. There's a great CD with much of it that I own on the Arts label.

He also was probably the first composer to write melodramas -- piano with spoken narration. He also wrote some really weird tone poem-like pieces (for piano) well before Liszt invented them formally.

[eschiss1]

Actually re Czerny, the new recordings on Nimbus of his complete solo sonatas is something I ought to try to hear (I know a few of them have been recorded before, but this is the first attempt at an integral that I know of.)

I have Czerny's piano sonatas 1 & 3 played by Kuerti (on Analekta) and 5, 6, 8 & 9 played by Jones (on Nimbus). Of course it's a matter of taste, but to me these are all grandiose, rather complex, well-crafted sonatas of a very high calibre (especially no. 6), and far better than any symphony or piano concerto by Czerny  I've ever heard.
Eric, I can very warmly recommend these marvellous piano sonatas. If you don't know them, you will be pleasantly amazed.

I've heard at least one or two of the sonatas (no. 9 over BBC, I think, in a studio recording, and possibly no. 2 also). Have seen scores of several of the others from IMSLP and other sources. Impressed so far!

[chill319]

The Czerny sonatas are most impressive and inventive. Even his late pastiche on Scarlatti is fun.

I wouldn't put him on a level with Raff,  but I do think his facility for composition and high opus numbers affected his posthumous reputation unfairly,  above and beyond the fact that he was encountered by many in precisely that part of their musical development when it was no fun at all to practice.

He certainly doesn't seem to have inhibited his student Liszt's compositional instincts.

I do hope the full version of Czerny's sonata 2 is available somewhere (haven't made a serious search). It must have been exceptionally ambitious to have been reissued in an abridged version.

[chill319]

A couple of years ago, I spent some time playing through about 15 Dussek Concertos, but I do not remember encountering the same genius that I did with some of the Sonatas, which I would rank alongside Beethoven, notably the Op.77.

In another thread I quoted a very positive assessment of a Dussek c-minor concerto from around 1800. The writer saw this work as a pivotal one in the history of the concerto, in that way similar perhaps to Beethoven's c-minor concerto. Was that work among the 15, Thal? If so, did it strike you as different from the others?

I heartily second your opinion of op. 77, which I believe relates to Dussek's earlier sonatas much as Beethoven's opp. 109 and 110 do to his earlier ones (bearing in mind that Dussek never wrote anything like op. 106).