Widor Symphony 1 & VC etc. from Dutton

[eschiss1]

Hrm. Maybe the choral parts are in ms- will look to see if the BNF catalog provides any information here.


Not that i can see, except conversely? Original orchestral score and parts dedicated to London Society, description @ BNF (digitized by BNF- press "visualizer" to have a look at the parts); etc. --

hrm. Yes, "chorus" @ Op60 @ IMSLP worklist e.g. shouldn't be there, I think. Putting in a request for better sourcing of that line... even if a Widor biographer can locate a letter in which the composer expressed the intention (if; that's hypothetical...) there would be the matter of , well, whether any choral parts ever existed.

Ok, hrm, composed 1888, published by Hamelle, then published by Heugel in 1908, which latter copy is the source of the version @ BNF - ah, there's an alternate title, Nuit de sabbat, under which I need to be searching too...

[semloh]

Thanks for the response to my query about the order of recording, Alan and Mark. 
So, are they right?  Is Widor's 1st symphony less appealing than his 2nd?

[Alan Howe]

In short, Colin: yes.

[musiclover]

I asked Dutton about the order of the recordings and they said it was the choice of Martin Yates to do the Widor recordings and the Piano Concertos were they obvious place to start because at the time there was no recording of those. As it happened Hyperion's recording came out just a month after the Dutton version. Regarding the two purely orchestral symphonies the decision to record No.2 first was much simpler than anything suggested here. There was orchestral material for No.2 and there wasn't any for No.1. Also No.2 used slightly larger forces than No.1 and as they were doing the cello concerto recording with the RSNO (and at the time thought they may do No.1 with either the Northern Sinfonia or the BBC Concert Orchestra), it seemed more sensible to do Symphony No.2 first.
In the end the orchestral material for Symphony No.1 was created by Emma Syrus, from the ROH, who I was told works closely with Martin Yates on all his projects.

[Mark Thomas]

Ah, interesting, thanks for that. I do still think though that, even if not done for commercial reasons, the order of release does happen to reflect the strength of the compositions on each disc. Symphony No.1 is a perfectly enjoyable work, fluently put together, expertly orchestrated and with some attractive material. But, as Alan pointed out in his first impressions, it lacks individuality and often sounds more mid-century German than French. That, and what I suspect will prove to be a lack of memorable melodies, rob it of the freshness and vitality which, perversely, some of the later works in Dutton's series exhibit. It's not a bad work at all, but is certainly not Widor's best. I'm afraid that, although it has more French individuality to it, I wasn't too excited by the newly-unearthed Violin Concerto either. It seemed to be rather a rambling piece, but I've only given it one hearing so far, and I'm not going to rush to judgement. On the face of it La Nuit de Walpurgis is the stand out work here. It's mature Widor, has a Wagnerian depth, lots of pace in the outer movements where, for obvious reasons I suppose, I was reminded of Frank's Le chausseur maudit and Guiraud's Chasse fantastique, and a sumptuous middle one.

[musiclover]

I think the Cello concerto is a much stronger work than either of the Piano Concertos. I also think the Fantasy for Piano and Orchestra is too. The violin concerto took me a couple of hearings. Once I found my way around its structure I really do like it. It's not a great lost work but it didn't deserve to be totally ignored. It would be lovely if it gave young and amateur violinists a chance to expand their repertoire but it's probably more difficult than it may appear and Sergey Levtin plays it so well as to make it sound straightforward!

[eschiss1]

Someone must have created the orchestral material used for the old radio tape performance I have of Widor's symphony 1 (for French radio, I think), though. Maybe it got lost...

The date Dutton gives for sym.1 , 1870, differs from that @ BNF, 20 June-20 August 1872.  Interesting.

[Alan Howe]

I think the two PCs are Widor's most substantial and interesting pieces of those we've been discussing, followed by Symphony No.2. La Nuit de Walpurgis is certainly the most individual piece on the latest CD, although I'm bound to say that Franck or Saint-Saëns did this sort of ghosty-ghouly stuff rather better. The middle movement of the Widor symphonic poem was the most attractive of the three for me - it rather reminded me of a Massenet intermezzo (almost verismo).

[Martin Eastick]

If my memory serves me correctly, the BBC broadcast a Symphony (No1 in F, I'm sure) sometime in the 1980's and I do actually have somewhere an old cassette of this together with the performance details,  although at present I can't lay my hands on this! I'm sure, though, that it featured one of the BBC orchestras, rather than being of French origin, and therefore can we assume that the BBC may have performing material still, unless of course this was obtained from another source at the time? Perhaps someone can remember this or may have the information to hand?

[eschiss1]

Cadensa confirms the existence of a BBC recording (or a commercial recording available to BBC announcers, but I think the former in this case) of symphony 1 @ BBC - and one of symphony no.2 in A op.54 (which the cataloguers, got to love them, think is an "alternate title" for his organ symphony no.2, Op.13/2, excerpted) - but provides no detail on the former recording; clicking on the usual link on the Cadensa work page just brings one, not to a list of recordings, but right back to the work page...

I think my tape was probably of the BBC performance, with another performance, of piano concerto no.2, on the reverse; not sure if the tape came with performance details or where I got it from, since sometimes my memory, short-term and long-term, deserves the name only in honor of earlier days.

[JimL]

The 1st Symphony, although referred to as being in "Fa" is in F minor.  I've seen the score - 4 flats, and the tonal scheme in the opening movement is definitely centered around the minor mode.  Not a particularly individual piece, but entertaining.  The 2nd is more characteristic.

[Gareth Vaughan]

I have obtained a copy of THE LIFE AND TIMES OF CHARLES-MARIE WIDOR 1844-1937 by Andrew Thomson (OUP, 1989, revised edition). In it he writes of the Royal Philharmonic Society of London giving "the world premiere of his symphonie 'La Nuit de Walpurgis on 19 April, 1888" and goes on: "In contrast with the classical formalism of the two earlier orchestral symphonies, 'La Nuit de Walpurgis' constituted a passing gesture towards Liszt's 'Music of the Future' with its programme based on an episode from the locus classicus of German Romanticism, Goethe's Faust. Composed in three movements, the extraordinary inventiveness of the orchestral textures owes much to Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique." So it would appear Widor may have thought of it as a 3rd symphony on a Lisztian model. (Oh, there is no mention of a chorus - so this would appear to be a piece of misinformation... as Eric's researches indicate.)

[eschiss1]

JimL- agreed re key of Op.16... (The full score is now @ IMSLP, by the way.)

[Martin Eastick]

Further to my recent post on this subject, I have just located my cassette recording of this work together with the printed programme details extracted from the Radio Times, and although I don't have the date (early 1980's?), I can confirm that this was listed as Widor: Symphony No1 in F, with the Ulster Orchestra conducted by Kenneth Montgomery. I hope this clarification may be of assistance!

[jdperdrix]

Just received the CD this morning!
If you are still waiting, let me remind that you can hear a mp3 version of it on spotify for free.